Swordsage & natural weapons?

[Ambrus]

I'm currently playing a wyrmling gold dragon who's recently leveled and I was considering taking a level of Swordsage. Unfortunately there's never any mention of (that I saw) of using maneuvers with natural attacks. For instance, the Desert Wind style seems fitting for a creature with the Fire subtype to have but some of the maneuver descriptions seem a little exclusive in their wording.

"When you initiate this maneuver, fire trails from your melee weapon. For the rest of your turn, your melee attacks deal an extra 1d6 points of fire damage +1 point per initiator level."

Clearly this ability is written with the intention that the character will use it with a sword in hand, but those of the Desert Wind style are equally permitted to use light maces, light picks and spears. The writter probably didn't bother mentioning that a monk could use it with his unarmed strikes since those are stated as counting as manufactured weapons in the class' description, but would the maneuver also work with natural weapons?

A first level Swordsage also gains the Weapon Focus feat with a weapon allowed by one of the styles he uses. Although some styles include unarmed strikes as an option there's no mention of whether the feat can also be applied to one of the creature's natural attacks or not.

Essentially, I'm trying to figure out if the Swordsage's class abilities can be extended to natural attacks or not. Help? :\

Edit: Does a multi-class martial adept use his initiator level to determine the level of his initial stance or does it only apply to maneuvers?

 

[glass]

I'm currently playing a wyrmling gold dragon who's recently leveled and I was considering taking a level of Swordsage. Unfortunately there's never any mention of (that I saw) of using maneuvers with natural attacks. For instance, the Desert Wind style seems fitting for a creature with the Fire subtype to have but some of the maneuver descriptions seem a little exclusive in their wording.Clearly this ability is written with the intention that the character will use it with a sword in hand, but those of the Desert Wind style are equally permitted to use light maces, light picks and spears. The writter probably didn't bother mentioning that a monk could use it with his unarmed strikes since those are stated as counting as manufactured weapons in the class' description, but would the maneuver also work with natural weapons?

Maneuvers work fine with natural weapons. A claw is a melee weapon, just as much as a longsword is. A few maneuvers specify that they can only be performed with their school's weapon, but most don't.

A first level Swordsage also gains the Weapon Focus feat with a weapon allowed by one of the styles he uses. Although some styles include unarmed strikes as an option there's no mention of whether the feat can also be applied to one of the creature's natural attacks or not.

The wyrmling will not get any benefit to his natural weapons from that ability (since none of the lists include 'claw' or 'bite'. However, there is no reason why the dragon cannot use unarmed strikes like everyone else, if it is benficial to do so. It is just a question of whether the extra attack(s) are work the -5 penalty to the claws (and the extra time to play it out).


glass.

 

[Shazman]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Tiger Blood style has claw as one of the favored weapons for the style. It makes sense since it seems geared towards shifters and lycanthropes.

 

[Ambrus]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Tiger Blood style has claw as one of the favored weapons for the style. It makes sense since it seems geared towards shifters and lycanthropes.

I don't believe any of the styles has anything more specific than "unarmed attacks" listed in their allowed weapons, though I'd love to be proven wrong on this case.

Is there any concensus on my last point? What I'm curious about is whether my PC's higher initiator level likewise applies to his selection of stances; the swordsage's class ability description states clearly that the swordsage gets one 1st level stance at first level. I'm not certain if that's supposed to be a guideline for single-classed swordsages or an
absolute rule that differs from that of multi-class martial adepts selecting higher level maneuvers.

 

[ohGr]

No, Shazman is right; claw is one of the preferred weapons of the Tiger Claw discipline.

 

[Nail]

Right there on page 42: Prefered weapons: kukri, kama, claw, handaxe, greataxe, and unarmed strike.

 

[Ambrus]

Indeed, I was mistaken. Very glad to see it too.

 

[Krafen]

I don't believe any of the styles has anything more specific than "unarmed attacks" listed in their allowed weapons, though I'd love to be proven wrong on this case.

Is there any concensus on my last point? What I'm curious about is whether my PC's higher initiator level likewise applies to his selection of stances; the swordsage's class ability description states clearly that the swordsage gets one 1st level stance at first level. I'm not certain if that's supposed to be a guideline for single-classed swordsages or an
absolute rule that differs from that of multi-class martial adepts selecting higher level maneuvers.

Well, the stances above 1st level require knowledge of at least one maneuver as a prerequisite. I think you'd be pushing it to say you select a strike at first level before you select a stance, so you would probably be restricted to 1st level stances at first level. You could certainly take higher level maneuvers that do not have a prerequisite at first level. One possible way to get around this would be to take Martial Training before taking levels in Swordsage.

 

[Dracomeander]

A first level Swordsage also gains the Weapon Focus feat with a weapon allowed by one of the styles he uses. Although some styles include unarmed strikes as an option there's no mention of whether the feat can also be applied to one of the creature's natural attacks or not.

You are shorting yourself here. On page 16 under Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus), it says you gain the benefit of the Weapon Focus feat for weapons associated with the chosen discipline.

Therefore, Discipline Focus (Tiger Claw Weapon Focus) would provide you with the equivalent of Weapon Focus with the list of weapons associated with the Tiger Claw Discipline - kukri, kama, claw, handaxe, greataxe, and unarmed strike.

 

[glass]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Tiger Blood style has claw as one of the favored weapons for the style. It makes sense since it seems geared towards shifters and lycanthropes.

In that case, scratch what I said.


glass.