Sympathetic Magic System

[GMMichael]

Please toss out ideas to help me out here. I need another perspective.

I'm making a magic system that doesn't use spell points or spells per day. It uses damage to keep the caster from using too much magic.

The system uses three ability scores: Physical (P), Mental (M), and Metaphysical (MP). A character's MP score is the amount of spell damage he can take before passing out. MP damage heals at one point per minute. Ability scores are 3-18, averaging 10.5. Each spell deals 1d8 MP damage, and requires an MP action.

(For example: Dwarfo has three ability scores: Physical 13, Mental 10, and Metaphysical 11. He can take 11 points of MP damage before passing out. If he casts a spell, the effort causes him 1d8 MP damage, and possibly other damage. Dwarfo recovers this damage at one point per minute).

Characters get three actions per battle round, to be taken during their turn (or saved as defenses). A character gets an extra action for every 5 points above 10 that his score is, and characters gain one point of ability score increase each level.

(For example: Dwarfo gets three actions on his turn. He chooses to cast a one-MP-action-spell on his turn, which leaves him two actions to use for defense later in the round. If Dwarfo's MP were 15, he would receive a fourth action per round, which must be used as a MP action. At his next level, he chooses another ability score to increase by one.)

My current plan is for spells to deal one die of damage to the caster for each effect or die of damage done to the spell target. A spell deals one less die of damage for each combat action required to cast it.

(For example: the spell Burn Others does 2d8 fire damage to an enemy. The caster of the spell takes 1d8 MP for casting, and 2d8 fire damage. This 2d8 caster damage can be avoided by spending 2 Physical additional actions to cast the spell, thus reducing the caster damage to just 1d8 MP.)

(For example: the spell Calm Animal prevents an animal from attacking. The caster of the spell takes 1d8 MP for casting, and 1d8 Mental damage for affecting the animal's mind. He can avoid this damage by using another Mental action to cast the spell.)

Characters are welcome to cast any spell they want - but they must take the damage associated with it as well. If a character cannot perform the proper amount of actions during his turn, (which is required to complete the spell), he must take the damage instead.

Does it seem fair to give spellcasters the tremendous power of spellcasting, as long as they're willing to take the damage?

Do you see any immediate ways to abuse a system like this?

Should Fighters in this system feel threatened by self-inflicting-damage-casters, any more than their one-action-equals-one-attack comrades?

 

[Evenglare]

Been reading name of the wind/wise man's fear?

 

[Meatboy]

So with 15 in MP a character can essentially cast a 1 effect spell with out sacrifice and still have 2 defenses? I guess it depends on how important defenses are. If heroes tend to fight a lot of mooks in the game then having those defenses might be crucial, especially if fighter/tank types can't keep enemies pinned down.

If however tanking is easy to do or the pcs fight mainly a few equally matched opponents then it may be easier for a caster to burn all their actions to cast bigger spells without taking mp damage. I think more info on how fighting works in general could help us understand how casting might be abused or if its balanced.

 

[Foxwarrior]

I anticipate some difficulties in pricing AoE spells, and casters burning theirselves nearly to death in the first round of combat to take out the big guys, before running away and doing as much as it is possible to do from a safe distance.

Like Evenglare, I was hoping to see an implementation of Name of the Wind-style Voodoo.

 

[Bagpuss]

Does a character gain one point to one ability each level, or point to all abilities each level?

Seems to me a caster would just dump stat everything but the Metaphysical (MP), so he gets that to 15, then 20 as soon as possible as the extra actions he gains would mean he could negate the damage to the other attributes more effectively than pumping them up as they advance.

Also how does that balance with a fighter taking extra actions, if the 2d8P and 1d8MP damage spell effectively takes three actions to case without taking any physical damage, but still taking MP damage, can't a fighter with the same three actions be doing 3d8 with his longsword, and not taking any damage?

Also regaining 1 MP per minute is asking for trouble. Do you really want to track the minutes when you aren't in combat?

 

[GMMichael]

So with 15 in MP a character can essentially cast a 1 effect spell with out sacrifice and still have 2 defenses? I guess it depends on how important defenses are. If heroes tend to fight a lot of mooks in the game then having those defenses might be crucial, especially if fighter/tank types can't keep enemies pinned down.

15 MP would grant the character an additional MP action each round, so he would have 4 actions per round total. The action from the high MP would be for MP use only, but it could still be used as an MP defense. The 3 unassigned actions could be used for defense as well. Any of those actions could be used to cast spells instead of being used later for defense.

Defense skills (Parry, Concentrate, and Willpower) are very important - if you don't have protection. Defense skills negate all damage, protection reduces the damage that gets past defenses. The problem with defense skills is that they require an action to use.

Mooks are up to the GM

If however tanking is easy to do or the pcs fight mainly a few equally matched opponents then it may be easier for a caster to burn all their actions to cast bigger spells without taking mp damage. I think more info on how fighting works in general could help us understand how casting might be abused or if its balanced.

Fighting is largely about actions and positioning. A melee weapon can be used in one action, a bow in two, crossbow in three. Spells do a die of damage (or an effect) per action as well. Positioning -
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/p-p-rpg/wikis/battle-space
- is like Final Fantasy 4: you're either toe-to-toe with the enemy, or you're avoiding him in the back. Back row takes and deals half melee damage.

I anticipate some difficulties in pricing AoE spells, and casters burning theirselves nearly to death in the first round of combat to take out the big guys, before running away and doing as much as it is possible to do from a safe distance.

I find the choice to burn one's self quite fascinating, roleplaying-wise. There are two kinds of running away: take cover (+4 Parry) in a defensive posture (half melee damage), or leave the combat. The idea is that combatants have enough freedom to move in battle to protect themselves, but not enough to completely avoid damage. If you can completely avoid damage, you'll probably have some trouble dealing it as well.

Like Evenglare, I was hoping to see an implementation of Name of the Wind-style Voodoo.

I don't know about this, but please, add your own rules!

Does a character gain one point to one ability each level, or point to all abilities each level?

One point to one ability, unless he wants to spend his level perk on another ability point. If someone expands the system to more ability scores, I imagine that more ability bumps may be in order.

Seems to me a caster would just dump stat everything but the Metaphysical (MP), so he gets that to 15, then 20 as soon as possible as the extra actions he gains would mean he could negate the damage to the other attributes more effectively than pumping them up as they advance.

Quite likely. But he'll want Mental points so that he can maintain spells, and Physical points help him survive normal attacks. So he'll need a healer or good armor spell handy as well. (Note that negating the damage applies only to his own spellcasting; a caster is still vulnerable to other Physical and Mental attacks).

Also how does that balance with a fighter taking extra actions, if the 2d8P and 1d8MP damage spell effectively takes three actions to case without taking any physical damage, but still taking MP damage, can't a fighter with the same three actions be doing 3d8 with his longsword, and not taking any damage?

Astute. We'll have to require the caster to use at least one action to cast the spell (also usable to negate damage) or else he'll be able to cast as many spells per round as he can take damage. So the caster can now use each spellcasting action to deal damage (or create an effect), while the only damage he can't avoid (without a perk) is the 1d8 MP which brings the spell into being.

Also regaining 1 MP per minute is asking for trouble. Do you really want to track the minutes when you aren't in combat?

It also results in a lot of spells being cast. I boosted that to one hour, same as Mental damage. And the caster can spend an hour Concentrating to get two back instead. So casters effectively gain more spells per day by increasing their MP scores, and taking the Casting Endurance perk, which reduces MP casting damage by 1 (but not below 1).

 

[GMMichael]

I anticipate some difficulties in pricing AoE spells, and casters burning theirselves nearly to death in the first round of combat to take out the big guys, before running away and doing as much as it is possible to do from a safe distance.

Fox, a fireball entry would look something like this:

Name: Fireball
Level: 5
Caster damage: 5 P, 0 M, R MP (5d8 physical, 0 mental, 1d8 required metaphysical)
Targets: 1-5 (the 5 damage dice can be on one target, or spread out over five)
Effect: Target takes 5d10 Physical (heat) damage.

So the caster can use Physical or Metaphysical casting actions to avoid the casting damage. The targets can make Parry contests (if they've saved one) to avoid the fire damage. Either party can use Physical protection (armor and such) to reduce the Physical damage. The caster isn't in danger of being in the "blast," 1) because the rules don't say that, 2) because no matter where he goes, sympathetic magic will attack him (caster damage) regardless of if he's in the blast, and 3) in game, he has the skill to avoid dropping a fireball on himself.

There's a lot of damage-reducing going on here. The caster can simply wear some heavy plate armor, not worry about casting actions (he has a minimum of one), and hope that the fireball does more damage to his enemy than it does to him. Note that on either side, there is a minimum of one point of damage per die (regardless of protection). Also note that characters effectively get a 1/3 of a hit point per level (or one in an ability score), so a minimum 1 damage goes a long way. (There are perks for bumping up maximum Physical and Mental damage).

 

[Foxwarrior]

You're going to need to subsidize AoE effects a bit more than that for them to be regularly useful: if armor subtracts from damage taken, the net damage you're doing here is actually less when attacking multiple enemies. That's above and beyond the part where distributing your damage is less likely to take out enemies immediately than focus-firing.

Admittedly, it's somewhat less important to make AoEs into a core spell type if you're not using them for a blast template-placement subgame.

 

[GMMichael]

This is where it gets interesting, boss. The first iteration of protection (armor), was that you would get to roll it anytime you took damage. This meant that each die of warrior damage would be reduced by one die of armor protection (if the target had armor). It also meant that one spell, and potentially a handful of damage dice, would also get only one roll of protection. /Usefulness of Warrior. (Note that the warrior gets extra actions at about the same rate as the spellcaster, and each action roughly translates into a die of damage. Note also that there is no damage bonus for strength, only attack bonus).

So I says - why not apply protection to each die of damage? That way, the caster can't significantly out-damage the warrior. Does this reduce the effect of additional damage dice? Yes. But the game has a minimum damage rule. So even if your damage dice don't exceed the protection dice, you still do one point of damage per die.

Now I realize that this can result in the following situation:
A first level noble brat carries a heavy shield, and wears full platemail into battle. (Protection: d4+1 and d10+4. Take half=12)
A tenth level caster assumes a defensive posture behind his apprentice, and casts Quake for 10d8 Physical damage.
The first level noble can parry, with a bonus of probably 2 (d20+2).
The tenth level caster casts Quake with a bonus of about 8 (d20+8).
Caster takes half, and gets 18 on his contest. Noble rolls with a 20% chance of avoiding all damage.
If caster succeeds, each die of damage (d8) goes up against the nobles average of 12 protection.
Likely outcome is that the caster does a minimum of one damage per damage die, or 10 damage.
First level noble loses over half of his health (which is probably around 12).

Distribute versus focus-fire: this is a judgment call by the caster in many cases. If he has a bunch of wimpy enemies, or a situation where he needs a big boom, he can go ahead and spread out the damage dice.

 

[Foxwarrior]

The noble's minimum of 7 protection is more relevant here. The attack always does 10 damage. By the way, taking half is a silly thing to do, and you should use AnyDice.com.

And of course it's a judgement call by the caster, the problem is that the enemies need to be much wimpier than a 1st level noble in armor (or the caster has to be at least level 13) in order for it to ever be a good idea to divide damage between them.