Synthetist is Shameful.

[concerro]

Tylerman is correct. I also found out that at least one of the Synthesis feats is a 3rd party feat that allows him to take a 10 ft step in place of a 5 ft step. I still don't know what the other one does. I would not allow 3PP feats to be combined with a class I was not familiar with.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

You came on here with a really serious attitude from post number 1, then seemed to get more angry at reasonable posts that disagreed with you when these posts weren't even written in an abusive, confrontational way (especially the posts containing the most commonly accepted counter-points to your arguments). You bring flawed arguments with bad/no evidence and have been angry from the start - I don't know what else to say, other than what I've already said (which you ignored when you quoted me).



How much Pathfinder have you DMed or played? The biggest disconnect here is that many people will experience something in their game that is very, very strong and immediately think it is overpowered because they've never seen something equally strong before. I think this is why the other posters responded by telling you that your Synthesist PC is not so strong by comparison to actually, really strong characters. Also, if your other party members are not equally optimized, then your problem PC will seem MORE problematic than it really is within the greater scope of the game-at-large. Basically, your PC is a combat beast, but the other posters here don't understand how or why that's a problem, ESPECIALLY when you consider that a problematic PC for THOSE POSTERS (who are very skilled, experienced players) would be much, much stronger than the Synthesist which you refuse to believe could not possibly be considered weak.

Inside the context of your game, it might be strong. But your players might be inexperienced and incapable of making equivalent characters. They might have bad tactics. They might not care, and might have purposely made slightly weaker characters for some reason. All of these things could explain why your Synthesist seems so unbalanced, and none of them have anything to do purposeful power creep on behalf of Paizo or "corporatism". It's an outlandish claim especially considering the overwhelming community feeling that the Synthesist is less powerful than the normal Summoner. Open up a little bit and this could actually be a decent conversation.

Tylerman, ease up on the condescending. I can appreciate that you wish for an intelligent debate. And I think you appreciate my resolve in this, which is good. I have reached out to the community for help on this matter. I have come out smashing and that's okay, I got your attention. If in my over emphasis I underachieve then at least there will be a record of this for others to follow and all will be conserved.

To answer your question, I have been playing d&d since 1977. I will explain to you why I do not like the summoner in point form.

10 Reason why *I think the Synthesist is BROKEN

1) It is poorly written and allows itself to ease of exploitation.

Another part of the problem is that Eidolons are trivially easy to make powerful. Eidolon evolutions are versatile and powerful, and there are only like 40 of them in total (all concentrated in one or two places). It's much simpler for a player to familiarize themselves with all these evolutions and to figure out nice combinations than it is to familiarize yourself with the hundreds and hundreds of feats and spells. And if you screw up and make a mistake, or notice something new, you can just rebuild the entire thing from scratch at the next level up.

As already said though, the problem with this archetype is that it's very very hard to do a crappy character with it, a situation rather unique in Pathfinder.
Wizards, Clerics or even Barbarians all have the potential to be at least as effective (powerful, if you wish) than a synthesist, but it demands much more system mastery from the player. This ease of building can quickly lead to the synthesist overshadowing every other characters, especially in groups with newer players or, uh, those ignorant of the Storwind Fallacy. Coupled with murky wording and rules for the synthesist archetype, and thus lots of mistakes, it gets ugly fast.

2) It is not suited for a points-buy game as players can tank their ability scores to achieve all around epic-like scores.

3) It is a be-all character that is 100% self-sufficient and therefor obsoletes the party:

Their rules set are unclear, poorly worded, and allow an immense amount of min-maxing to create a character that can 'do everything,' which goes against the entire ethos of the Pathfinder class system.

4) It adds new mechanics that allow a doubling-effect to hit points, free added CMB/CMD bonus due to size and strength, increase BAB practically free wherby other classes need to invest feats and magic items and thus is a superior tank and obsoletes the fighters.

At Mid to higher lvls you will outshine everyone in terms of HP/AC/Att/Dmge.

It’s looked on as a spellcasting class, but it usurps the Tank role. Thus the pally and Fighter will feel left out.

5) It does not need to place its starting resource gold into protective or damaging equipment thanks to its natural armour bonus (et al starting bonus) and so starts the game with a greater disposable income than all other players.

6) It does not need a mount as it is usually always flying and can greatly outdistance the party, especially effective in wilderness encounters on large scale maps (average d&d does not play this but on projector we do).

7) With 40 evolutions it can make itself into any monster and is the perfect remix to how to make your own creature. For me D&D has gone from me being a GM to me pitting my piddly forces in a perpetual boss battle. Thus with its added new evolutions mechanics obsoletes beastiary CR.

8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players and possibly collapse the GM. We lost a player on his first session due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX

9) Once something is broken it is easier to make more broken. A chip in your windshield will spider crack and may eventually impair your vision.

And before you ask, it has been clarified Synths can take extra evolution. Dragon stance lets him pounce through friendlies; with advanced notice likes freedom of movement so he can charge through rough terrain as well.

10) The Eidolon mechanic abuses stacking limitations by creating a super armour over the wizard. Ii is a great irony that the original wizard is forbidden to wear metal armour but in the end we have they synthesist whom can protect himself in a suit of the Emperors finest.

The class mechanics are unique from traditional class construction and therefore adds an added layer to character creation that can be abused. So not only can you optimize using traditional optimization tricks (feats, magics, etc), you have the added potential to optimize your new class mechanics (drawing from bestiary feats, etc) resulting in a double-optimized character. Actually its probably more like 2.5X the potential as the added mechanics have better flexibility to work with core mechanics (eg size tricks).

All of the quotes were taken from different individuals in the community. I hope you can appreciate this and I hope that I have enlightened some of you. Those who wish to disprove me are welcome, yet also I encourage you to follow me on my wiki. I have some great ideas for our game, and I am only getting started. This synthetist is just a tick compared to the real juggernaut that is man's imagination.

Cheers,

 

[gamerprinter]

Eh, I'm still not even interesting in playing any kind of Summoner, and I love PF classes. The arguments for and against doesn't convince nor compel me to want to play the Summoner. Also as a GM, I love creating new or enhanced monsters, though I can add Eidolon capabilities for monster design - I'm not even interested in that. I love purely Bestiary styled monster design.

I even do this professionally and see not compelling reason to want to design monsters using Eidolons. Its not 'badwrongfun', but I don't see why anyone would want to, IMO.

 

[concerro]

1. It is poorly written because of the rules exceptions. As for exploits if a GM stick to Pathfinder material and makes sure it is built correctly there should not be issues. Every time someone says a summoner is broken, and they post a build mistakes are found and it is made to be manageable again.

2) It is not suited for a points-buy game as players can tank their ability scores to achieve all around epic-like scores.

I do not like the way that works admittedly, but I do think there is some exaggeration.

3) It is a be-all character that is 100% self-sufficient and therefor obsoletes the party:

Not true at all. It can buff or fight, not buff and fight which a regular summoner or bard can do. It does not do utility as well as a caster, not remove status effects. It can not be the knowledge guy, and skills based guy. Bard can do this also. The only thing the synthesis has on bard is that it fighters better, and not even the bard is really self-sufficient.

4) It adds new mechanics that allow a doubling-effect to hit points, free added CMB/CMD bonus due to size and strength, increase BAB practically free wherby other classes need to invest feats and magic items and thus is a superior tank and obsoletes the fighters.

Hit points can be bypassed if a GM really wants to challenge the summoner. A GM can also be tactical and focus fire. Increase BAB, really? AFAIK onlybards can do that. I had a PvP/PbP with on and I was almost took it out with a twf fighter on the paizo boards. The only that saved it was that I was fighting the traditional summoner and he was using the eidolon as a mount so he used the ride skill to negate a hit that would have allowed me to stunlock it. I know the game is not PVP, but had my PC been an NPC the same thing would have happen.

5) It does not need to place its starting resource gold into protective or damaging equipment thanks to its natural armour bonus (et al starting bonus) and so starts the game with a greater disposable income than all other players.

Starting gold is a non-issue unless you are not playing past level 5. The question that should be asked is what is this starting gold used on that is breaking the game?

6) It does not need a mount as it is usually always flying and can greatly outdistance the party, especially effective in wilderness encounters on large scale maps (average d&d does not play this but on projector we do).

It is common for people to say an entire party can get access to fly if they want it. It is also common in practice. A wilderness encounter should also have cover from the trees so there won't be many large scale wilderness battles unless plains are also included. In that case if the synthesis gets to far ahead he gets jumped by the bad guys so he really has to wait for the party. One can say he can take on the baddies all on his own, but since he is melee oriented he can do this no better than a fighter or barbarian or ranger. The synthesis just happens to have more hp. Focusing fire can take care of that.

7) With 40 evolutions it can make itself into any monster and is the perfect remix to how to make your own creature. For me D&D has gone from me being a GM to me pitting my piddly forces in a perpetual boss battle. Thus with its added new evolutions mechanics obsoletes beastiary CR.

Exaggeration for dramatic effect.

8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players and possibly collapse the GM. We lost a player on his first session due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX

A lot of things can overshadow an inexperienced player or collapse a GM. That is not summoner/synthesis specific.

9) Once something is broken it is easier to make more broken. A chip in your windshield will spider crack and may eventually impair your vision.

Most people can handle it, so I don't see it as broken.

10) The Eidolon mechanic abuses stacking limitations by creating a super armour over the wizard. Ii is a great irony that the original wizard is forbidden to wear metal armour but in the end we have they synthesist whom can protect himself in a suit of the Emperors finest.

The summoner is not a wizard, and miss chance is more effective than AC so the wizard is still ahead. Since the summoner does not have the wizard's utility or even the bard's that was a false characterization.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

Here is an example build of level 10 synthesist provided by Thalin from Paizo forums.

Target CMD / tripping? Really? Level 10 Str 30 large-sized quadruped, and you're going to try to trip? Also, my favorite Synths are dwarves (you have build points to spare so Cha 14 or even 16 is no big deal; meanwhile it shores up any "saves" weakness").
Here, let's build out. Criticize the build, aside from "min-max" cheese (this is an attempt to prove overpowered). 15 points
Level 10 Dwarven Synthesist (Quadraped):
Str: 7 (30) - -4
Int: 13 - 3
Wis: 16 - 5
Dex: 7 (18) - -4
Con: 16 (19) - same con, both forms - 5
Chr: 16 (18 with +2 cha headband, 2 from levels) - 10
Evolution: Improved Armor (3), Pounce, Arms, Claws (twice), Large, Wings
Casts Mage Armor twice / day and extended Greater Magic Weapon once per day (+1 all attacks)
It has toughness as a feat, plus lots of skill focuses in knowledges
Skills: Fly - +17
Perception: +25 (has trait for bonus)
Diplomacy: +10
UMD: +10
Acrobatics +10
AC: 12 + 8 (level natural) +1 (size natural - size penalty) +2 (shield effect) +4 (Mage armor) +6 (evolutins) +4 (dexterity) +1 ring = 38.
HP: Dwarf - 8 + 5.5 * 9 + 4*10 = 97 + Eidilon temp (6.5 * 8 + 5 * 8 = 92 temp).
Saves (-4 if Dwarf bonus does not apply)
Will: +17 Ref: +15 Fort: +15
CMD: 10 +1 (size) +4 (dex) +10 (Str) +8 (BAB) = 33, +6 vs trip +4 vs grapple
Feats: Steely Resolve, Extra Evolution (2), Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Strike, Power Attack
Attacks (5, and can pounce): all +15 (before non-day buffs, after power attack... usually much higher). Compare with fighter, who will typically be +18 by now after same.
Damage: d8 (or d6) + 23 + 2d6 each. First hit each round does +5 damage if charged.
Magic items: Rod of extend (2)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+2 headband of charisma
Amulet of might fist (electric attack)
Miscellaneous wands (lesser restore, a few restore Eidilon, honeyed tongue, etc)
And before you ask, it has been clarified Synths can take extra evolution. Dragon stance lets him pounce through friendlies; with advanced notice likes freedom of movement so he can charge through rough terrain as well.
So, compared with our fighter / barb raging compatriot, slightly lower to hit, but far more versatile. Evolution surges fill in any needed gaps, can haste, and when in a hostile area opens with extended Heroism (3 hours). Spell list is almost strictly buffs for party, with a little utility (Restore Eidilon for instance).

Also, saves are +2 higher (shield bonus), and Will was calculated 1 lower than it is. So saves Will: +20 Fort: +17 Ref: +17 (with evasion)
The total is d6/d4 + 17 + 2d6 (acid evolve, electric amulet). +5 1st attack. I +3ed power attack in the calc. You can get this damage or / above here on DPR, but it's hard; and the Fighters / Barbarians that do this have actual weakness (nowhere close on hp/saves/AC). This character is a self-contained invincible machine of destruction, and evolution surge acts as a "joker" for everything from Spell Resistance to Blindsight to Perfect Flight. They can also diplomize well, and do flying charges through friendly squares (avoids most difficult terrain, so charge is almost a given). In most settings they'll have heroism up for the adventuring day as well (3 hours is usually a dungeon-setting adventuring day, or far more). More saves, more to hit.

If we use my basic melee formula (which does not account for complex melee feats) we get:

BAB*5= 33(5)= 165
#of attack*5= 5(5)= 25
max damage (non crit)= 43
max hit points= 97+92= 191
base speed= (don't know for sure so prob 40)= 40
AC*5= 38(5)= 190 (ouch)

So the basic melee score is 614 and we have a winner!

It is funny to notice that the addition of 3rd party to my level 9 synthesist puts the score at 580.

 

[hazardjsimpson]

8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players and possibly collapse the GM. We lost a player on his first session due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX

How funny. As a looooong time GM and player, here's what I take from this.

As a GM, you didn't check the character PRIOR to allowing it in your game. Your bad.

You apparently ignored that the class is in the ADVANCED PLAYERS GUIDE (not Core Book) and on top of that, is applying an Archetype template. Your bad as a GM again, especially since you make a point about it needing to be an ADVANCED class. (Your point above.) I fail to see how this is anyone's fault but yours as the GM for not knowing this ahead of time.

There are also some funny mechanics here. Some of the feats you referenced in your first post are obviously third-party, which means again as a GM, you haven't been proofing what you allow in your game. That's your bad again.

You aren't handling the class correctly. First point: they don't use stacked hit points.

--"The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane."

So once the Eidolon goes bye-bye, then what? You have a crunchy caster again, with less casting power than a Wiz or Sorcerer. This is NOT the same as stacking hit points, and should not be handled like it is.

Second, losing the Eidolon. The fused Eidolon still goes away when the Synthesist sleeps, is KO'd, etc. So there's that to consider. (everyone has to sleep, ) There's a level 7 Summoner in my group that I GM for, and guess what? I single blowdart with a DC20 poison save knocked him and his Eidolon right off the board.

I'd also like to point this out: "The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own." - This is unique to the Synthesist Archetype. So that means your Eidolon doesn't get all those fun extra feats of its own, so where is your player getting those? If he chooses feats for himself OR his Eidolon, those are static. They don't change via Evolution (unless I missed an ability in my reading somewhere)

Then there's the fact that the Eidolon is still exposed to things like Banish: "Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. "

So now how awesome is the flying Synthesist when his Eidolon gets banished mid-flight? Not very.

All in all, I'd say that there are class balance/imbalance issues everywhere if you look hard enough. The trick is finding them BEFORE you allow them into your game willy-nilly. It's unfortunate when a player has to pay the price for a mistake that the GM made. (Or a series of them.)

And finally, really? This is a game of IMAGINATION. (cue rainbow here) If you can't think your way around a lone min-maxer in your party,that's sad for someone who's been playing since '77.

 

[concerro]

Here is an example build of level 10 synthesist provided by Thalin from Paizo forums.


If we use my basic melee formula (which does not account for complex melee feats) we get:

BAB*5= 33(5)= 165
#of attack*5= 5(5)= 25
max damage (non crit)= 43
max hit points= 97+92= 191
base speed= (don't know for sure so prob 40)= 40
AC*5= 38(5)= 190 (ouch)

So the basic melee score is 614 and we have a winner!

It is funny to notice that the addition of 3rd party to my level 9 synthesist puts the score at 580.

That look good in theory but it assumes mage armor will be cast. A 24 AC can be hit by a CR 10 monster.
The other issue is that large and bigger "pets" often run into space issues in closed areas like dungeons. Reduce person will have to be used
Those attacks are not spelled out. I have no way of knowing if the OP did not make an error.

A regular summoner eidolon can get the same numbers, and still cast spells.

The only thing that changes is hit points if the summoner gets too far away.

Your formula is also not as accurate as the DPR forumla which takes a lot more things into account. That is why people are not giving it credit.

People also will not use 3pp material as a proof of brokeness since that is basically a house rule to allow it.

If the other poster puts the complete build up then he might get some credit.

 

[concerro]

The posted synthesis build just had its number ran according to the DPR forumla. It was beaten by the barbarian, paladin, ranger, alchemist, and druid.

Here is a link.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

Oh my, what a surprise, you are all right and I am mistaken. Guess what, we had a breakthrough today. Rather than to metagame with sleep darts we are going to learn how to maintain a balance and be more wary with the materials provided. I refuse to be demoralized by such nitpicks who have nothing to contribute other than insults, condescension and criticism. Rather I will think about how by this I have developed our group as today we thought of how to create an actual planar wheel of fortune made of wood and that can be hanged on our wall and spun (like on the price is right). Also how we are going to redevelop psionics based upon the works of hyperconcience and magic the gathering. I will not be swayed by your pedantry, rather I thank you for this opportunity to share my thoughts with you. I will confide that I don't care how you feel for if you don't mind and if it's okay with you, I feel great.

As a token of my appreciation, I leave you with this pleasant discovery http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/06/us-titanic-moon-idUSTRE8251LC20120306

Cheers,

 

[Piratecat]

Okay, folks, stop. Now.

Everyone - and I mean everyone, not just Joah - needs to go read my two moderator warnings above. It is just fine if people don't have opinions that match your own. That's what makes a discussion interesting. It does not mean that anyone can sink to personal attacks, passive aggressive snarkiness, or rudeness. It's okay if people don't agree with you. Try to prove them wrong with examples, but don't bicker and don't take it personally.

If this is in the least bit unclear to anyone, PM me.