Tabletopocalypse Now - GMS' thoughts about the decline in the hobby

[nedjer]

Part of it is similar to the reason that very few independently produced records or books will end up gaining popularity; if you don't have a big record company or publisher distributing and advertising for you, it is hard to get the traction needed to make it big. But this is not the only or even main reason that Mechanical Dream is not a popular RPG; I would say that it has to do with particularity, specificity, and a kind of arcane quality that a lot of indie games have: They are created less for playability and game-table enjoyment and more as a kind of artistic rendering or snapshot of RPG potentiality. A game like Tribe 8, for instance, is very focused and flavorful thematically, but it has both limited appeal and scope, and potential for ongoing games.

I would say that one of the main reasons that D&D (and its largest child, Pathfinder) is so popular, year after year--aside from the big publishing house factor, which is significant--is that its play style, from OD&D to Essentials, is particularly conducive to a kind of ongoing, neverending, adventure game feel that you just don't get with many games. Whether we're talking about the sandbox or a tightly crafted epic campaign; there is a sense that the D&D Universe, in all its variations, from the published settings to the thousands of homebrews, is eternal, it exists and goes on. So even if your epic campaign ends with an apocalyptic bang, a new world can arise. To quote Merlin in Excalibur, "There are other worlds, this one is done with me."

There are other D&D worlds, countless of them, yet they are all part of one vast, populated, eternal mythos. Yet there is only one Mechanical Dream or Legends of Alyria, and it is self-contained, a creation of one or two minds; even though D&D was originally the creation of only a few, it has become the ongoing creation of millions. When you play a game like Mechanical Dream you are exploring a foreign land, a place you go to for a time but eventually come home. When you play D&D you are exploring your own world, your own land, and discovering new things about it. Exploring new regions, yes, but also exploring with fresh eyes, especially when you take into account that many of today's D&D players have played during different phases of their lives, from the "Golden Age" of childhood and middle school, to the "Silver Age" of high school, to the "Bronze Age" of college, to the Iron or Dark Age of early to mid-20s to the early 30s when many gamers leave aside such "childish things", to a potential revival and new Golden Age in one's mid-30s and on.

But I've rambled.

Much the same was said of the Indie music scenes in the 80s and 90s, until they became the new standard. You seem to be suggesting no one has ever or will ever want to move on from (the TRPG equivalents of) Phil Collins and Barry Manilow.

 

[billd91]

Much the same was said of the Indie music scenes in the 80s and 90s, until they became the new standard. You seem to be suggesting no one has ever or will ever want to move on from (the TRPG equivalents of) Phil Collins and Barry Manilow.

But are they the new standard? Would they have gotten as far without some media outlets, like Spin in its heyday, flogging them?

And keep in mind that the big corporate record company acts include far more more than tepid stuff like Manilow or Phil Collins. How about the Stones? Pink Floyd? Metallica? All major acts that have benefited from massive amounts of promotion from record companies and big media. Is an indie band ever going to have the same kind of sales as either the Stones or Floyd? Is any indie record ever going to have the same penetration into the market as Dark Side of the Moon or Thriller? Or even Barry Manilow? He has been a massive success over the years.

Making comparisons with musical acts is full of problems in general. For one thing, enjoying a CD is very different from enjoying a role playing game. The time and effort commitments are very different. It takes little effort to get Manilow, Floyd, and the Stones on your iPod and enjoy them equally with a collection of indie or small label titles. I can have the Stones or Zeppelin on my iPod along side Liz Phair, LukeSki, Billy Bragg, Modest Mouse, and a host of other obscure local bands putting their stuff on CDs made on the cheap.

But if I want to really enjoy a role playing game, I've got to put some time and effort into running or playing it. In the time I can sit down for one session of a game (and that doesn't even include prep), I could have 3 or 4 different CDs playing in the background. That difference could just exaggerate the issue even more.

 

[Umbran]

I can have the Stones or Zeppelin on my iPod along side Liz Phair, LukeSki, Billy Bragg, Modest Mouse, and a host of other obscure local bands putting their stuff on CDs made on the cheap.

Wow, someone else who knows LukeSki.

 

[billd91]

Wow, someone else who knows LukeSki.

Local boy. He has performed at a few local cons for years, sometimes with guest artists like Art Paul Schlosser or Raymond and Scum.

 

[nedjer]

But are they the new standard? Would they have gotten as far without some media outlets, like Spin in its heyday, flogging them?

Is any indie record ever going to have the same penetration into the market as Dark Side of the Moon or Thriller? Or even Barry Manilow? He has been a massive success over the years.

It takes little effort to get Manilow, Floyd, and the Stones on your iPod and enjoy them equally with a collection of indie or small label titles. I can have the Stones or Zeppelin on my iPod along side Liz Phair, LukeSki, Billy Bragg, Modest Mouse, and a host of other obscure local bands putting their stuff on CDs made on the cheap.

But if I want to really enjoy a role playing game, I've got to put some time and effort into running or playing it. In the time I can sit down for one session of a game (and that doesn't even include prep), I could have 3 or 4 different CDs playing in the background. That difference could just exaggerate the issue even more.

OK now I'm plain confused. Pink Floyd and the Stones were Indie before the term/ genre was invented. And we both know Thriller and Barry are the worst kind of bad wrong fun. The distinction is as clear as lots of girlfriends v's lots of lager and kebabs.

 

[Mercurius]

Much the same was said of the Indie music scenes in the 80s and 90s, until they became the new standard. You seem to be suggesting no one has ever or will ever want to move on from (the TRPG equivalents of) Phil Collins and Barry Manilow.

Hmm...you seem to be saying that D&D is to RPGs what Phil Collins and Barry Manilow are to pop music: shmaltzy, run-of-the-mill talents that were popular because of their mediocrity not despite it. I don't think that is true, but that there is something deeply appealing and evocative about D&D that other, more intellectually innovative RPGs haven't been able to capture. It is similar to why J.R.R. Tolkien created one of the great classics of literature but Hal Duncan or Jeff Vandermeer probably never will; Tolkien tapped into something deeply archetypal, that resonates with something soulful within humans, whereas Duncan and Vandermeer--while clever, innovative, and "literary"--don't tap into the same depths and thus don't inspire in the same way.

If I have to make a musical analogy, I suppose D&D is more like classic rock, the Beatles or Doors or Pink Floyd, none of which are necessarily the best music ever created but offered something real, something archetypal to the consciousness of the modern era.

I am saying that D&D is to the RPG world what The Lord of the Rings is to fantasy literature. The are "better" books than LotR, there are ideas that are just as imaginative, characters much more deeply realized, more intricate and cleverly wrought plots. But LotR is a true classic; it is the fantasy novel of the 20th century, the central, defining text.

This is not to say that it is impossible that another RPG comes along and redefines the field and opens up new realms of possibility. Actually, Vampire did this, and maybe a few others on different scales. But why is it that most RPGers go back to, or never leave, D&D? Is it the same reason that most people buy Kleenex and not other brands of tissue? That certainly plays a part. But I think there is much more to it than that, and that "much moreness" is where things get interesting and, perhaps, worth exploring when we're discussing the future of the hobby.

 

[Beginning of the End]

And, that modern birds are still dinosaurs.

Interestingly, in some venues, this assertion is held as entirely true. In other venues, it's crazy talk. Go figure.

I'm trying to imagine a venue in which "robins aren't real birds like chickens, because chickens haven't changed since they were velociprators" would be considered "entirely true".

I'm coming up a little short.

oh and please give me a good example of a thousand year old game thats printed in books and changes every year. I dont think one exists.

Chess.

... were you just not paying attention to the post you were replying to?

 

[Chaos Disciple]

Chess.

... were you just not paying attention to the post you were replying to?

Can you provide a link to where I can get copies of all those books?

I really want to see how many rule changes ive missed.

 

[Chrono22]

^You haven't played chess much, have you? There are many varieties of chess, and every one of those has particular playing styles. There are boatloads of chess books, chock full of alternate rules and advice, check amazon or your local hobby shop.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For chess variants, many can be found here: http://www.chessvariants.org/rindex.html

Here's their overall list of of chess variants:
The Chess Variant Pages -- Query Results

Here they are sorted by board size & shape:

http://www.chessvariants.org/Gindex.html

And there are others out there not cataloged at that site...