Tactics for a Dragon

[Daedrova]

I ran a session this past weekend where my players actively sought out to slay a Dragon, and some tactics questions came to my mind about there tactics- if only in a particular situation (one that I had a little trouble dealing with)

The irony of this is that the very tactic a player used this weekend is one I had used in a Dead Heroes-D&D tournament type event, and given account of previously to my friends/players.

They player I mention is a Wizard (and we are using the Spell point variant from UA), and the battle became aerial, because they encountered this dragon in a thick swampy forest which created a sort of canopy, separating ground from sky (for combat sake).

Now, the tactic I used was a couple years back using 3e rules, when haste was a broken spell. I simply put myself in a position about 100 ft away from the dragon while invisible (improved), cast lightning bolt, and moved at least 60 ft away from my previous location. (and I suppose you don’t actually have to be using haste to bolt and run). The dragons blind-sight being only 60 ft. and being only a 7th level caster, I saw no way for him to track down the wizard when it came to his turn. The best he could do is move to the spot where the wizard was. How could he possibly find him to attack?

Does anyone have a way to defeat this tactic?

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

The dragons blind-sight being only 60 ft. and being only a 7th level caster, I saw no way for him to track down the wizard when it came to his turn. The best he could do is move to the spot where the wizard was. How could he possibly find him to attack?

Umm. The best he could do was to move where the wizard was? Several choices come to mind that might pose alternatives to that action.

1) ready an action to charge the wizards location on the next bolt
2) Fly away - fast. Circle the area at a range just greater than that of lightning bolt, waiting for spells to end (not advisable, but a young dragon might try it)
3) Fly away - fast - keep going, scry on area/party/party member from safe location.
4) Ready an action to cast 'dispel magic' on origins of lightning bolt when bolted - include a 'will move to within range if necessary' clause in the readied action.
5) Engage full defensive wild flying. Lightning bolt requires ranged touch attack, yes? If so, bump your AC like mad - include buffing spells if possible.
6) Dive below canopy (out of sight, can't be hit) and attack the rest of the party (annoying wizard - leave him hanging)

Of these - I'd use #3 or a variation in my games (I run different games than most). I'd recommend others to use #4 or a variation thereof. Readied actions can be devestating to wizards. Heck, for a dragon with 120' flight speed (adult green), 60' is a move action. With a feat or two, just ready the action to fly to origin and BW that whole area when lightning bolted.


What kind of dragon (age/color/any classes?) are we talking here? A young white would react extremely differently than an ancient red, for example.

 

[derelictjay]

Dragon has the scent ability right (ahg.. can't remeber), anyways scent ability always beats invisiblity. Just move in the direction of the smell, and whalla, your blindsight kicks in. (thats how I did it one time, can't remeber what creature, tho)

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Dragon has the scent ability right (ahg.. can't remeber), anyways scent ability always beats invisiblity. Just move in the direction of the smell, and whalla, your blindsight kicks in. (thats how I did it one time, can't remeber what creature, tho)

Heh dragons don't have scent - just blindsense. 'sides - no offense to you - but tracking a scent through the air would be nigh impossible with any kind of wind.

 

[Angcuru]

The best way to win a fight with a dragon is to hit it in the head with a battleaxe as soon as it hatches. Otherwise (if the DM is playing the dragon properly) you might as well run.

 

[Sejs]

Dragons don't have scent, and lightning bolt doesn't require a ranged touch attack.

Frankly, by the time a dragon can cast Scry they're somewhere in the mature adult-to-old category, have around 25 HD or so and an SR in the early to mid 20s. Lightning bolt is no longer -that- big of a threat at that point in a dragon's life.


With a younger dragon, assuming the wizard has the drop on our scaly subject, just take the first lightning bolt on the chin... nothing to be done for it, really... then ready an action to move down the path of the next bolt to the caster as fast as possible. Once the dragon has the wizard within arms reach, the caster is a dead man. If the wizard is able to evade somehow (dimention door or the like), go up. High. Don't go under the canopy - the smaller humanoid will be much more maneuverable in tight terrain. Once he shows himself in an open area, strafe him with your breath weapon, fly-by snatch him (assuming you're big enough, that is), or just cat-and-mouse the wizard until his spells run out. His flight, invisibility and offensive spells only go so far and last so long. Your flight, blindsense and breath weapon are limitless.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Thanks folks,
I am planning on running a YA white cr 8 in a session or 2 and I can see this coming up - Most likely dragon will be using hit and run, or just show up, circle while PCs buff and fly away for an hour. In mountains the dragons 200' fly speed is unmatchable. I want the fight to be vicous but I don't know how smart a 8 int dragon should be...

 

[Psiblade]

Snatch, Fly away, and Breath are a dragons main weapons. In a dragon's mouth, characters do not get a save vs Dragon Breath. Dim Door and Teleport are a characters only escape route. Dragons should always be smart enough to this flyby attack routine. Dragons also have the wingover ability, so one turn up to 180 degrees. Slaying a dragon is the stuff heroes are made of. It should be tough.

Yes, the dragon should climb and ready an action to charge where the bolt came from. If the dragon is diving his speed and damage doubles (power attack a little for double damage also). Use flyby, snatch, chomp, and then breath next round upon the presumptous caster. Dragons are one of the few things that actively challenge high level parties.

-Psiblade

 

[Daedrova]

Ok, I was leaving work yesterday and hurried to finish giving the important details before I had to leave, but here are a few more:

The dragon wasn’t Lit to death . I did not have the dragon try the -move-to-wizard's-previous-location action more than twice. He did attempt to cast spells of his own those rounds, only to be counterspelled, before he changed tactics. The wizard had Reactive Counterspell, and Improved Counterspell (he is trying a "blue mage" caster), combined with the Spell Point system (for those who don’t know- the wizard still prepares spells every day- but when he casts the spell doesn’t leave his memory, it simply depletes a portion of his Spell Pool for the day), the dragon wouldn't have a chance to successfully cast.

Dragon's caster levels fall short of a spellcaster PCs. This was a CR 17 Old Black Dragon, caster level 9th (not 7th, my mistake), compared to the 12th level wizard. The wizard is using a spell functioning like 3e haste- (we agreed on Greater Haste- a 6th level spell that produces the same effect- grants an extra action for 1 round/level, range: touch- 1 target). Thus, the PC was able to counterspell in reaction to pretty much any spell the dragon had (being that dragons have a limited selection of spells, casting as sorcerers), and still take a standard and move action.

The PCs speed, due to haste, fly, and a special racial package was 120 ft. He was, of course, protected by stoneskin and protection from energy (acid) while invisible.

Maximized lightning bolts do 60 damage, and with a dragons not so good Dex/Ref save, and this one having under 300 hp, he would not survive more than 4 of them (on failed saves).

SR 23 for this Dragon meant only a roll of 9 was needed for a 12th level caster with Spell Penetration.

The dragon did not have the scry spell.

I did have the dragon dive below the canopy and do good damage to the other PCs (a couple nearly died), but they did manage to bring it (and its demonic servants) down.

The idea of readying an action is good- but I was under the impression that you could ready only a standard action, which I suppose does allow for a move action in its place- but a charge is a full round action. Can you actually ready that?

What if a PC obtains a fly speed greater than the dragon? (airwalk spell?) Even with a readied action on for the dragon, this would allow the PC to lightning bolt (then the dragon takes the readied action), then to move more out of the dragons range once again. And suppose the PC does have the (greater) haste affect for the extra action?

I would be glad to see more suggestions for such a situation.

 

[Plane Sailing]

That 12th level wizard seems to have a lot of 6th level spell slots to throw around (greater haste and how many maximised lightning bolts? Or is he using the ultra-cheap rod of lesser maximisation?)

3e version haste would be unbalanced as a 9th level spell IMO. There is no spell level at which it isn't an absolute must-have, because it is such a force multiplier for wizards/sorcerers.

The dragon should have been using his spells for personal buffs and hiding. He has the ability to create 80ft radius darkness around him which shouldn't be sneezed at even though it has been rendered feeble by 3.5e darkness.

The dragon could have been protected by protection from elements (against the elements he is most at risk from - electricity, fire and cold), speeded up by haste (extra attack, double movement), use glitterdust to eliminate all miss chances on invisible foes...

Plus the dragon can ready a charge, to fly 1x its movement rate and attack. When the second lightning bolt hits it can hack in there and attempt to grab the mage, and if it gets him - rip him to pieces... power attack for +10 to get through the stoneskin and he wouldn't last long.

Cheers