Tactics for a Dragon

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Plane sailing seems to have hit the nail on the head

I'm confused as to whether this is a cr8 YA White or a 12th caster level Black...

Regardless, the fact that the mage was lightning and counterspelling in the same round is what's broken here.

The rules are written, and have been modified, to absolutely prevent you from casting 2 spells in the same round. You can't even cast two quickened spellsin the same round. Start a new thread and I'll be glad to cite rules to support...

Given that - the mage that tosses a lightning bolt can't counterspell anything because doing so violates that basic premise as counterspelling requires casting a spell opposing the opponents spell.

Regardless - charging the opponents square in the air is a viable tactic that could work, provided you have the movement plane mentioned. As an alternative, there are a couple of feats a dragon could take and move 2x his move (move action) and still do a single attack at any time during the move.

And regardless of that - I'd say the description of that black dragon is a fair encounter for the players. Tough, scary, and really intricate. The goal is not to outright kill the players, but to put the fear of death into them. Dragons are great for that

 

[kigmatzomat]

Ok, I was leaving work yesterday and hurried to finish giving the important details before I had to leave, but here are a few more:

The wizard had Reactive Counterspell, and Improved Counterspell (he is trying a "blue mage" caster), combined with the Spell Point system (for those who don’t know- the wizard still prepares spells every day- but when he casts the spell doesn’t leave his memory, it simply depletes a portion of his Spell Pool for the day), the dragon wouldn't have a chance to successfully cast.

Did you rebuild the dragon using UA magic? It seems to me that you were handicapping yourself by not using the same magic across the board.

Dragon's caster levels fall short of a spellcaster PCs. This was a CR 17 Old Black Dragon, caster level 9th (not 7th, my mistake), compared to the 12th level wizard.

I'm kind of with the others on the spells/day aspect. I don't have UA but a wiz 12 shouldn't be able to toss off that many Gr. Haste & Maximized Lightning bolts. He tossed off what, 3-4 6th level spells?

Second of all, was this the dragon's lair? If so, why didn't the dragon go underwater? Swamps often have deep channels and Blacks can breath water. Let the dragon play tag with them, using his Blindsense to snipe at them. And with 270' blindsense I can't see many situations the mage can both move into a safe range (move action #1), cast the spell (standard action), and get away (move action #2) while still countering the dragon's spells.

What feats did you give the dragon? It should have about 9, including a few epic feats. Hover, Wingover, Snatch, and Improved Multiweapon fighting are the feats every dragon should have.

Hover is excellent because of the dust cloud. What, didn't notice that aspect? Yep, if a dragon hovers near the ground and there's stuff around to kick up (and what dragon doesn't plant it?) it creates a massive cloud of dirt and debris that blinds everything that doesn't have blindsight. Oh yeah, fun for everyone.

 

[derelictjay]

First off, my scent thing was based on my memories (yeah, I remembered they had keen sense, but didn't realize it only applies to sight, stoopid if you ask me).

Basically beat a stratigic (misspelled) retreat, you might have to take a spell or two, and the counterspelling thing might have screwed me once, But that wiz. ain't doing that again. Most of the time the spells I pick for the dragon are defensive (dragon aready got good offense) and as such during that retreat I would cast spells like (figuring said spellcaster already nixed see invisibility) invisiblity, and even silence or darkness (if dragons small enough) on me dragon (take advantage of a stealthy dragon, always nasty). And yes, always try to bring the fight to "home turf", i.e.. If said dragons got water breathing go underwater, burrowing go underground. etc.

 

[Daedrova]

That 12th level wizard seems to have a lot of 6th level spell slots to throw around (greater haste and how many maximised lightning bolts? Or is he using the ultra-cheap rod of lesser maximisation?)

Using the Spell point system, he had greater dispel, greater haste, true seeing, and another. Lightning bolt, I now recall, was actually empowered, though that still could kill the dragon in just 4-6 spells. You do not forget spells from casting them, and a 6th level spell costs 11 Spell Points. His Int being 26 (28 w/ FR Casting Prodigy feat) his max spell pool is 166. The party was well rested before the encounter. The game is (obviously) high power and the PC's ECLs are 15.

The dragon should have been using his spells for personal buffs and hiding. He has the ability to create 80ft radius darkness around him which shouldn't be sneezed at even though it has been rendered feeble by 3.5e darkness.

Darkness would be good, although being in the air and using darkness wouldn't be too effective, since a decently surmised placement of a fireball or lightning bolt would still hit him. The dragon did attempt casting invisibility, only to be countered.

The dragon could have been protected by protection from elements (against the elements he is most at risk from - electricity, fire and cold), speeded up by haste (extra attack, double movement), use glitterdust to eliminate all miss chances on invisible foes...

He was protected from fire, which seems to be the favored energy of offensive/evocation spells (and my PC's), and I thought it to be sensible. Coincidently, only one PC can do lightning damage, and only with lightning bolt. The wizard became aware of the dragons protection when the party's sorcerer attempted a scorching ray. That is assuming that a targeted dispel couldn’t have easily stripped the dragon of all its protections.

Plus the dragon can ready a charge, to fly 1x its movement rate and attack. When the second lightning bolt hits it can hack in there and attempt to grab the mage, and if it gets him - rip him to pieces... power attack for +10 to get through the stoneskin and he wouldn't last long.

Ok, that is good to have confirmed. But again, many evocation spells have greater range than a dragon can fly in a round, let alone an action, which makes readying a charge ineffective.

Oh, by the way. The dragon was attempting to escape, as any sensible intelligent creature would do when fighting a loosing battle (it became wounded-hp/vitality was gone and damage began applying to wounds which = Con [x2 for huge size]). Or he would have- but then I witnessed the use of a completely broken spell.
A 2nd level it either completely negates movement, or slows creatures incredibly in a 20-ft/level area of effect. A creature in the area can move only 5 ft. for every 10 points they beat a Str 20 DC. On a maximum roll this Dragon could move 15 ft. per round! Has anyone else encounter such a problem with this spell before?

I am still curious to see some Dragon tactic that could defeat all of the previously mentioned.

 

[morbiczer]

Or he would have- but then I witnessed the use of a completely broken spell.

What's the name of this spell and where is it from?

 

[Psiblade]

3.0 Haste is questionable at 9th level much less 6th. 3.0 Haste more than doubles a spellcasters firepower. Every single spell caster would take that spell at 6th, 7th, or even 8th level! There is a reason why quickened spells are 4 levels higher. With that spell the only effective opponets will be those also with it. :\

-Psiblade

 

[Kalendraf]

I've run a couple black dragons in 3e/3.5 and they can be really nasty.

IMHO, a decent black dragon of any age category should have a nice deep pool nearby to go retreat into. After suffering signficant damage (50% of so), it should head underwater and wait there hoping that their enemies are stupid enough to follow it. That pool may be highly acidic. Even the lowest level black dragon has water-breathing and acid immunity and they learn to rely on those 2 abilities at an early age. Dragons are long-lived and even the chaotic ones can be patient enough to wait until the coast is clear.

Against ranged attackers, especially those it can't see or are beyond it's reach, black dragons may also try using their darkness innate ability to sheath themselves in darkness and make it impossible for their enemies to see it. Their blindsense allows the black dragon to essentially see thru this darkness. Spells that require a target to be in sight will fail, while most other ranged attacks are subject to the 50% miss for concealment.

Combining these 2 tricks can be pretty nasty. Dragon dives into water, then while underwater it covers itself with darkness. Later, it rises up again out beyond the light radius of the party (assuming night time or underground situation) and moves into a prime position for a breath weapon attack. Another option is to flyby and snatch someone. The party may not see it coming and then have no clue where it went.

 

[Daedrova]

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

Oh, the spell is from the PH... it is called Web. I know… I was shocked too. I had glanced over the spell every time I read though the PH, just thinking it was a moderately useful spell- one who's style I just didn't appreciate ... yeah.

I must note that my goal was not to "defeat" my players in any way. I do like them to emerge victorious, and the taste of victory is that much sweeter after a good challenge.

This dragon did have dragon feats- Hover, Wingover, Snatch, Awesome blow (which it used to knock the Paladin through a blade barrier cast by the cleric one round earlier ), etc.. In the 3.5 MM it indicates dragons have blindsight 60 ft... where do you get 270 ft. kigmatzomat?

The particular black dragon in this situation was one who made a pact with demonic fairy-folk. They would lure travelers/adventurers/creatures using various means deeper into this swampy forest where a trap would be sprung. With the might of the dragon and the deception of the fairies, they were quite successful in gaining food and wealth by these means. A favorite trap used against traveling companions was thus: the fairy-folk hid large nets beneath the shallow swamp waters, and as adventurers would walk through, groups of them hiding would fly up into the air holding ends of the net, capturing one or two at a time, suspending them in the air at the mercy of the black dragon who leaped into the sky.

When the trap was sprung on my party, the demon-fairies succeeded in trapping the Paladin in the net. The party reacted quickly by wizard and sorcerer casting fly spells (the cleric can fly naturally), the wizard turned invisible, and was able to grant flight to the paladin who escaped before the dragon had a chance to snatch him. That is why the dragon began aerial combat, and was not in his lair. (He did have enough time to cast a few spells- protection from fire, stoneskin, haste [which adds 30ft. maximum to a creatures speed] and every NPC also makes use of the same variant rules [including spell points] the players take advantage of).

Yes, this did serve as an example as how two spells per round can be quite potent- as mentioned, it is the same tactic I used in a “dead heroes-tournament” event at our local gaming store not more than 3 years ago.

Also, if the wizard were just one level higher he would have been able to do this same thing without benefit of (greater) haste by slinging Quickened lightning bolts and use of Reactive Counterspell.

So, given such a situation: considering a wizard has the ability to sling at least a fair amount of quickened lightning so he can still counterspell... or perhaps both the wizard and sorcerer would decide to work in unison- both stay out of range, one counters while the other fires-
What is a dragon to do?

As of now, I don't see a way for the dragon to trump being bolted from a range greater than its speed while the caster is invisible (greater), followed by the caster moving away after the casting (staying out of range of the dragons blindsight, or readied charge)

 

[kigmatzomat]

Oh, the spell is from the PH... it is called Web.

You're aware Web only works on the ground since it needs at least two anchor points, right? Won't affect characters flying above a tree canopy. The dragon's breath weapon should also make short work of the webs and any lightning will set it on fire.

This dragon did have dragon feats- Hover, Wingover, Snatch, Awesome blow (which it used to knock the Paladin through a blade barrier cast by the cleric one round earlier ), etc..

First off, Awesome blow, while handy, pales next to Snatch. Automatic damage each round and unless you grab a monk you've severely nerfed that guy's damage output. Snatch also lets you fling your opponent, pretty much the same as AB.

IIRC, there are epic feats that boost SR. (Though I'm surprised your mage never failed since he had a roughly 4/10 chance of it). Were I a dragon, I'd get one of the fast-heal epic feats since it takes dragons forever to heal otherwise.

BTW, here's a note from the 3.5 SRD on Hover:

If a creature of Large size or larger hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. .... Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).

This should have pretty much nerfed the lightning bolter as the dragon always has total concealment.

In the 3.5 MM it indicates dragons have blindsight 60 ft... where do you get 270 ft. kigmatzomat?

I grabbed the digital copy of the SRD I had which (checks) happens to be 3.0. I didn't realized that changed between versions. In 3.0 it was 30' x Age category. Very old is 9th category, hence 270ft. My bad.

the fairy-folk hid large nets beneath the shallow swamp waters, and as adventurers would walk through, groups of them hiding would fly up into the air holding ends of the net, capturing one or two at a time, suspending them in the air at the mercy of the black dragon who leaped into the sky.

When the trap was sprung on my party, the demon-fairies succeeded in trapping the Paladin in the net. The party reacted quickly by wizard and sorcerer casting fly spells (the cleric can fly naturally), the wizard turned invisible, and was able to grant flight to the paladin who escaped before the dragon had a chance to snatch him. That is why the dragon began aerial combat, and was not in his lair.

Ahhh, I see your mistake. The dragon should always go after the casters and aerial combatants first, preferrably after firing off a dispel magic. Leave the ground-pounders alone, especially when there's a tree canopy to keep them out of the action and demon-fairies to keep them busy. He should have gone straight for the invisible guy full bore. He's either a rogue or a caster.

Once he Snatches him (never letting go, just chewing once a round, maybe twice a round thanks to haste) he turns his attention to the other aerialist. Dragons have high maneuverability and lots of HP to survive while taking people out one at a time. And since a PC is grappled, he'll take the lightning damage too. If he starts getting trounced, dive underwater. It'll kill off whatever's Snatched as well.

Also, if the wizard were just one level higher he would have been able to do this same thing without benefit of (greater) haste by slinging Quickened lightning bolts and use of Reactive Counterspell.

So, given such a situation: considering a wizard has the ability to sling at least a fair amount of quickened lightning so he can still counterspell... or perhaps both the wizard and sorcerer would decide to work in unison- both stay out of range, one counters while the other fires-
What is a dragon to do?

Kill them one at a time. No, seriously. Turn invisible, grab a likely caster as part of a charge (mmmm, too bad True seeing only reaches 120' and they can move 150'), and drag him into the water. He drowns as you rip him to pieces and repeat process. Spray the party with acid to keep them nervous.

Oh, and while they're walking through a swamp/forest, use Web.

And I think the Reactive Counterspeller was still doing the actions wrong. The Reactive Counterspelling, at least in 3.0 and IIRC, took your entire action, you just got to do it out of sequence.

So in Round 1 Mage throws a lightning bolt and moves and the dragon casts a spell which the mage Counterspells.
Round 2 the mage does *NOTHING* but if the dragon casts a spell he can again counterspell by taking his round 3 action early which would result in doing nothing in round 3. Or maybe with Gr. Haste in round 2 he could cast a spell but not move.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I ran a session this past weekend where my players actively sought out to slay a Dragon, and some tactics questions came to my mind about there tactics- if only in a particular situation (one that I had a little trouble dealing with)

The irony of this is that the very tactic a player used this weekend is one I had used in a Dead Heroes-D&D tournament type event, and given account of previously to my friends/players.

They player I mention is a Wizard (and we are using the Spell point variant from UA), and the battle became aerial, because they encountered this dragon in a thick swampy forest which created a sort of canopy, separating ground from sky (for combat sake).

Now, the tactic I used was a couple years back using 3e rules, when haste was a broken spell. I simply put myself in a position about 100 ft away from the dragon while invisible (improved), cast lightning bolt, and moved at least 60 ft away from my previous location. (and I suppose you don’t actually have to be using haste to bolt and run). The dragons blind-sight being only 60 ft. and being only a 7th level caster, I saw no way for him to track down the wizard when it came to his turn. The best he could do is move to the spot where the wizard was. How could he possibly find him to attack?

Does anyone have a way to defeat this tactic?

The dragon can take two move actions in one round if it wants to...