Taking 10 on Spellcraft Checks to Learn a Spell?

[Caliban]

Actually, I think that this MUST be somewhere, although I can't find it in the SRD. Can anybody check from the PHB?
I have never allowed to take 10 or take 20 on a Knowledge check, and I can't believe I came up by myself with this idea...

If someone can Take 10 (or 20) in a Knowledge skill, it means he knows EVERYTHING in that field below a given DC, which doesn't sound right at all.

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BTW, a 1 is not an automiss for skills. Otherwise the "classic" explanation of Take 20 crumbles apart.

You can't take 20, but you can take 10.

And if you have the resources of a reference library available, I might even let you take 20 (and 20 days).

 

[Pax]

Actually, I think that this MUST be somewhere, although I can't find it in the SRD. Can anybody check from the PHB?
I have never allowed to take 10 or take 20 on a Knowledge check, and I can't believe I came up by myself with this idea...

If someone can Take 10 (or 20) in a Knowledge skill, it means he knows EVERYTHING in that field below a given DC, which doesn't sound right at all.

You are right. And you are wrong. Sort of.

Taking 10 or Taking 20 has a certain prerequisite: that failure once will PERMIT a retry.

Everyone go to your PHB and look at the "retry" entry in Knowledge skills. It says:

PHB page 71, Knowledge skill entry:
Retry: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something you never learned in the first place.

Now, everyone turn your PHBs to the Taking 10 / Taking 20 rules:

PHB page 61, Checks without Rolls entry:
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally two minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in one round, one full-round action, or one standard action), and when the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 if you roll long enough. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right. Taking 20 takes about twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

So, you can Take 10 on a knowledge check ... but you cannot take 20. Nor could you take 20 to climb a cliff (failure means you fall, and maybe die), nor to learn a spell (the DC rises each time you fail, which constitutes "a penalty for failure").

But you can take ten on them; it repesents taking your time and being VERY careful about what you are doing. But it isn't prevented by failure-based penalties (even if it seems logical that it -should- be).

All Taking 10 represents is, literally ... not rushing to get it done ASAP, rather, taking time to pay attention to EVERY detail.

And even without taking 10 ... "take 1" ... with a +15 Knowledge Skill modifier, that means you automatically and INSTANTLY know everything in that field that requires a DC of 16 or less. So?

 

[Pax]

You can't take 20, but you can take 10.

And if you have the resources of a reference library available, I might even let you take 20 (and 20 days).

Better would be to rate the Library itself for how thorough / comprehensive it's resources are, in reference to the question at hand. Apply that as a circumstance bonus to the check and still allow the character to Take 10 (if it's "The Great Imperial Library" and covers hundreds of acres of land, to a height of 5 stories aboveground and ten stories below, chock full of books, scrolls, and other manuscripts ... it might be worth a +30 circumstance bonus).

Then, of course, apply a different base time, or a modifier to the normal base time, based on the size of the library overall. Hunting through a library typically takes hours, days, even months and years (the Great Imperial Library above would likely have a base time for research ranigng from a a day to a week (simple, common topics) to perhaps ten years (ludicrously obscure information)).

Hunting through hundreds fo books, scrolls, and so on take a lot longer than scratching yoru chin and trying to dredge a memory out of yoru own brain, after all. But tends to bear more fruit, in the long run.

 

[AuraSeer]

Taking 10 or Taking 20 has a certain prerequisite: that failure once will PERMIT a retry.

Wrong.
That prerequisite is for taking 20 only. The only restriction on taking 10 is that you not be hurried, threatened, or distracted.

You can take 10 to climb a cliff, no matter what the consequence if you fail.

 

[Caliban]

Better would be to rate the Library itself for how thorough / comprehensive it's resources are, in reference to the question at hand. Apply that as a circumstance bonus to the check and still allow the character to Take 10 (if it's "The Great Imperial Library" and covers hundreds of acres of land, to a height of 5 stories aboveground and ten stories below, chock full of books, scrolls, and other manuscripts ... it might be worth a +30 circumstance bonus).

Then, of course, apply a different base time, or a modifier to the normal base time, based on the size of the library overall. Hunting through a library typically takes hours, days, even months and years (the Great Imperial Library above would likely have a base time for research ranigng from a a day to a week (simple, common topics) to perhaps ten years (ludicrously obscure information)).

Hunting through hundreds fo books, scrolls, and so on take a lot longer than scratching yoru chin and trying to dredge a memory out of yoru own brain, after all. But tends to bear more fruit, in the long run.

Yeah, that makes more sense. What I was proposing was basically taking 10, with the library adding a +10 bonus to the check.

 

[Pax]

Wrong.
That prerequisite is for taking 20 only. The only restriction on taking 10 is that you not be hurried, threatened, or distracted.

You can take 10 to climb a cliff, no matter what the consequence if you fail.

You obviously didn't read the REST of my post. The sentence you cited was worded VERY poorly (I admit); instead of "Taking 10 or Taking 20" it was intended to say "Taking 20, unlike Taking 10". The rest of that post made it abundantly clear that was the INTENT, no matter how (incredibly) poorly I misspoke.

So please, do read ALL of a post before responding to any part of it in the future, hmm?

 

[AuraSeer]

So please, do read ALL of a post before responding to any part of it in the future, hmm?

I did read your whole post. Just now I went back and read it again to make sure. I don't see anything that contradicts the sentence I quoted. I'll take your word that I misunderstood (rather than reading this as an attempt to backpedal and gloss over a mistake on your part).

So, I misunderstood a post. That's no reason to be a condescending prick.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In my opinion, I believe that one of the reasons my DM ruled that way was to promote more enjoyment of the game.

It was not stated in so many words, but I believe many people within my gaming group feel that there are certain things within the game that should not be "automatic" successes.

One of these things would be the ability to learn spells. I believe that my DM was trying to convey the sense of "specialness" and "magic" that comes from learning a new spell, by not allowing taking a 10 on a spellcraft check. When a player rolls the dice, there is that sense of randomness and excitement, that can be lost when a 10 is taken.

However, as I said before, I am ambivalent to the situation and am perfectly happy with my DM's ruling, but I am curious if there is anything in the rules that explicitly states that a 10 can be taken on spellcraft check in regards to learning a spell.

You make good points, but from the rules POV the wizard has earned the right not to enjoy that kind of 'excitement' by having a good spellcraft skill.

The excitement won't last long anyways: high Int mid-level wizards can succeed on the spell learning checks even with a natural '1'. In the long run this is much ado about nothing.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Considering that a wizard who even adds a few spells to his spellbook spent enough money to buy a magic sword or make several rings of protection, I don't think that the "excitement" of possibly spending it all for nothing is very worthwhile. If anything, it would reduce the enjoyment of playing a wizard rather than increase it.

Not that it would matter to a wizard with maxed out spellcraft and a good int score after 8th level or so. . . .

You make good points, but from the rules POV the wizard has earned the right not to enjoy that kind of 'excitement' by having a good spellcraft skill.

The excitement won't last long anyways: high Int mid-level wizards can succeed on the spell learning checks even with a natural '1'. In the long run this is much ado about nothing.

 

[Pax]

I did read your whole post. Just now I went back and read it again to make sure. I don't see anything that contradicts the sentence I quoted. I'll take your word that I misunderstood (rather than reading this as an attempt to backpedal and gloss over a mistake on your part).

So, I misunderstood a post. That's no reason to be a condescending prick.

Okay wiseguy. How's your reading comprehension?

Try this; it's the FIRST paragraph after the LAST quote-block in the post in question:

So, you can Take 10 on a knowledge check ... but you cannot take 20. Nor could you take 20 to climb a cliff (failure means you fall, and maybe die), nor to learn a spell (the DC rises each time you fail, which constitutes "a penalty for failure").

:: /me hands AuraSeer a clue-by-four ... ::