Taking 10 on Spellcraft Checks to Learn a Spell?

[Li Shenron]

PHB page 71, Knowledge skill entry:
Retry: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something you never learned in the first place.

But you can take ten on them; it repesents taking your time and being VERY careful about what you are doing. But it isn't prevented by failure-based penalties (even if it seems logical that it -should- be).

All Taking 10 represents is, literally ... not rushing to get it done ASAP, rather, taking time to pay attention to EVERY detail.

And even without taking 10 ... "take 1" ... with a +15 Knowledge Skill modifier, that means you automatically and INSTANTLY know everything in that field that requires a DC of 16 or less. So?

I still have a problem with Take 10 in Knowledge. If I understand correctly, you can Take 10 when you are not in a rush or anyway when the situation is not stressing or de-concentrating (such as while fighting, while riding a horse, while running away...). It has officially nothing to do with retries.

A Knowledge check anyway is done to see if you know the answer on a topic, not if you remember, or is it the opposite? I always thought so, exactly because you can't retry a knowledge check on the same topic (let's not talk about house rules, but just to let you know, I would like that you could retry the same check when you have gained another rank in Knowledge).

If the check is to see if the answer to the topic belongs to your knowledge, how could it depend on the situation? Example: in the middle of a battle, the Cleric notice an unholy symbol on his opponent's shield, can't take 10 in Knowledge(Religion) because he's in combat, and fails the check: he can't tell what symbol it is. If he had waited until the end of the battle, with taking 10 he would have recognized the symbol, but now he can't anymore, because you can't retry a Knowledge check.

Wait... now that I think... is Take 10 a "check"?
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The "take 1" consideration is true, and in fact I don't necessarily like it either, but at least it's 9 points less. In PHB the Knowledge DCs start from 10 for "very basic questions", so to know EVERY very basic answer you still need a +9 in that Knowledge, which is IMHO a BIG bonus (either you must be medium-level or exceptionally clever, and of course very focused in the skill).

If you can take 10 in Knowledge, with 1 rank only (and at least Int 8) you can answer every basic questions in the field. It can be, they are very basic after all, but if you could NOT take 10, you would still know approximately more than 50%. Sorry if I dislike the idea of 100%

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About libraries: I think it really goes beyond the Knowledge skill itself, although a skilled PC must be somehow facilitated in finding the wanted information among hundreds of books. But I think it could better be a Search check, although a high rank in Kn. should give some advantage.

Having the right book with THE answer you're looking for doesn't even make you roll the check*, but it may require you a check to find/discern the answer among the rest.

*I mean, if I tell you the answer, which bonus do you get to say the answer? +oo?

 

[kreynolds]

A Knowledge check anyway is done to see if you know the answer on a topic, not if you remember, or is it the opposite?

What's the difference? If I remember, then I might know. If I know, then I might remember.

 

[bret]

About libraries: I think it really goes beyond the Knowledge skill itself, although a skilled PC must be somehow facilitated in finding the wanted information among hundreds of books. But I think it could better be a Search check, although a high rank in Kn. should give some advantage.

Having the right book with THE answer you're looking for doesn't even make you roll the check*, but it may require you a check to find/discern the answer among the rest.

*I mean, if I tell you the answer, which bonus do you get to say the answer? +oo?

They need a different skill for library use, some sort of Research skill. I think D20 Modern has one.

The problem with using Search is that makes the Rogue the best researcher. Same with Gather Information.

I have no problem with Rogues being good at research, but I do have a problem with Wizards being poor at it. Whatever skill you use for looking stuff up in a library should be on the Wizard class skill list.

 

[MThibault]

A Knowledge check anyway is done to see if you know the answer on a topic, not if you remember

Well, you could use a slightly more complex rationale and say that the check is to see if you know the answer, or can figure out the answer based on what you know. So if you roll, you are going for straight recall and might pull an obscure piece of info out of the air with a good roll, but if you are taking 10 you are gathering together everything that you can remember on the topic and adding it up. The check basically is your best estimate of the answer.

I would give a circumstance bonus (+2) if you spend an hour trying to puzzle it out: "So if the Duke's grandfather's name was Draconis, and his wife's family comes from the south, where the heraldry favors fields of colour over patterns, then this coat of arms with the dragon on an azure field is quite possibly that of the Duke or of one of his children. Hmmmn, oh yes, the bend sinister argent, is over top of the dragon so it is a difference so it can't be the Duke... but which child? How many did he have again? Lesse, there was... etc." An hour or so later he figures out that the coat of arms held by the defeated knight is that of the Duke's third son. Mechanically, he's taken 10 on his Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) check with a bit of a circumstance bonus for taking a lot of time to work it out. So his check of 10+4 ranks +2 circumstance bonus will make the DC15ish check for knowing the answer to a Basic question.

I don't allow Take 20 with a access to a library, but I do allow daily retries. If the library were not indexed at all or had no librarian to point to the books or subjects you were interested in I only allow bi-daily retries. If you get lucky you will put your hand on the book you need that first day, if you aren't lucky you are just adding to the pieces of the puzzle until it all comes together in your mind.

Of course all of this is still horribly oversimplified: you always know when you have the right answer and when you have the wrong answer (I wish I had that superpower). So I don't think that any usable system could satisfy anyone in all situations.

Cheers.

 

[Pielorinho]

Okay wiseguy. How's your reading comprehension?

Deep breaths! Your post contradicted itself. Your first, "poorly worded" part was unambiguously incorrect. Later in the post, you described the situation correctly. I found your post confusing, too.

If someone points out the incorrect statement, you can always say, "Oops! Thanks -- lemme go edit that typo. Note that I had the correct information later on in my post."

Good grace, like poor grace, makes an impression on folks.

I'm extra-generous with knowledge checks: I'll tell someone whether taking 10 is good enough for them to recall a bit of information, and if it won't be, I'll let them roll. Taking 10 on a knowledge check, IMHO, involves searching their regular memory for it; rolling for it involves pulling the answer out of their butt.

If I ask you who wrote Huckleberry Finn, you might think back to your English class and remember that it was Mark Twain. If I ask you the name of the dog on Married With Children, you might have no idea at all, having seen the show only three times in your life -- and then, out of nowhere, the name "Buddy" pops into your head (or whatever the dog's name was).

The former represents taking 10; the latter represents rolling.

Daniel

 

[Pax]

I still have a problem with Take 10 in Knowledge. If I understand correctly, you can Take 10 when you are not in a rush or anyway when the situation is not stressing or de-concentrating (such as while fighting, while riding a horse, while running away...). It has officially nothing to do with retries.

That would be correct, as the rules are written.

If the check is to see if the answer to the topic belongs to your knowledge, how could it depend on the situation? Example: in the middle of a battle, the Cleric notice an unholy symbol on his opponent's shield, can't take 10 in Knowledge(Religion) because he's in combat, and fails the check: he can't tell what symbol it is. If he had waited until the end of the battle, with taking 10 he would have recognized the symbol, but now he can't anymore, because you can't retry a Knowledge check.

I would allow the cleric to re-try the Knowledge (Religion) skill, despite the letter of the rules, using a "take 10" approach anytime circumstances improved over the last time a check was made. IOW, recheck when teh cleric can take some non-stressed time out to really think about the holy symbol ("Hmm, yes I rather thought that looked familiar ... with everyone jumping about, and those orcs trying to bash my skull in I couldn't quite placeit but now I am sure that the symbol is DEFINITELY the mark of the Frozen Apostates cult ... shame I couldn't place it earlier, they tend to be well-warded against our good wizard's ice-damage magicks ..." etc, etc). IOW, when the cleric can "Take 10", they can do so, even if a prior roll failed (odds are, they'll only bother if they rolled a 9 nr less ANYway).

And perhaps, recheck AGAIN, if the cleric later comes across a good reference library, versed in (perhaps esoteric) aspects of theology ("Aha! I couldn't place that specific holy symbol before, because it's not been SEEN for three thousand years ... that altar int eh tomb was dedicated to the evil deity Akkadis, as these ancient scrolls have revealed to me ..."). IOW, sometimes "Knowledge (___)" skills aren't solely your own knowledge, it's also knowledge of how to hunt through a library or other sources to FIND "new" knowledge related to that field (knowing which sources are credible, which are not, and so on).

Wait... now that I think... is Take 10 a "check"?

Yes, it's a "check", but not a "roll" ...

The "take 1" consideration is true, and in fact I don't necessarily like it either, but at least it's 9 points less. In PHB the Knowledge DCs start from 10 for "very basic questions", so to know EVERY very basic answer you still need a +9 in that Knowledge, which is IMHO a BIG bonus (either you must be medium-level or exceptionally clever, and of course very focused in the skill).

My most-recent higher-than-10th-level character (a Wizard(Necromancer) 8 / Loremaster 6) eventually had a Concentration skill of +19 (+23 for csting defensively). Even for ninth-level spells (which he had no access to yet, ofc), he could NEVER fail a "cast defensively" roll. His spellcract was somewhere around +20 (20+ Intelligence, maximum ranks).

And he had a slew of other skills (Profession: Mortician; Healing; Alchemy; Scry; etc, etc, etc), too.

If you can take 10 in Knowledge, with 1 rank only (and at least Int 8) you can answer every basic questions in the field. It can be, they are very basic after all, but if you could NOT take 10, you would still know approximately more than 50%. Sorry if I dislike the idea of 100%

Yes, every basic question. As a DM, you are the one who decides if a question is "basic", or not. Take "Knowledge: Astronomy". Knowing orbits are not perfect circles, and knowing the formulae for determining various aspects of an orbit were put together by Kepler (?sp) is a basic question (or I'd not know it, as I don't honestly think I have even a 1-rank Astronomy skill ... maybe a half-rank, just enought o make the check at all). However, recalling the EXACT formulae themselves is a bit more advanced than that ... and in fact, I can't recall them (except they had various greek-alphabet bits in them ... big help, eh?).

Only one step further, but knowing the actual formulae is less "basic" than knowing there ARE formulae.

About libraries: I think it really goes beyond the Knowledge skill itself, although a skilled PC must be somehow facilitated in finding the wanted information among hundreds of books. But I think it could better be a Search check, although a high rank in Kn. should give some advantage.

A Search check would work, if you knew what you were looking for ("I need a copy of Mertogia's Mysterii Alchemica published prior to year 335 of the New Calendar ... and INTACT copy if possible ...").

However, if you simply need to sift through scores, or even HUYNDREDS, of scrolls, tomes, and so on, and DIDN'T know for certain the early-edition Mysterii Alchemica had the answer(s) you needed .... "Knowledge: Alchemy" woul serve you far better, as anyone versed in a given Knowledge skill should know what to look for while perusing / skimming volumes OF that knowledge. Perhaps a synergy bonus would be applicable in that specific circumstance, going in both directions.

Rating the library for a Circumstance bonus (either overall, or in specific subjects, or a combination of the two) models how complete the library's selection is, in regars to teh topic at hand (and some libraries may have NEGATIVE ratins ... for example, searching for ancient Druidic rites and rituals in a 12th-century christian monastery's library ... you'r emore likely to be hindered, relying on the library, then helped ...).

Having the right book with THE answer you're looking for doesn't even make you roll the check*, but it may require you a check to find/discern the answer among the rest.

Hence, if you know the book(s) you need, a Search check is in order. If you don't ... a Knowledge check, aided by the library, seems a better choice.

*I mean, if I tell you the answer, which bonus do you get to say the answer? +oo?

Heh.

 

[Pax]

Deep breaths! Your post contradicted itself. Your first, "poorly worded" part was unambiguously incorrect. Later in the post, you described the situation correctly. I found your post confusing, too.

If someone points out the incorrect statement, you can always say, "Oops! Thanks -- lemme go edit that typo. Note that I had the correct information later on in my post."

Well, two things went on. For one, it was a (thankfully infrequent) bad day for me.

Two, I did (not so nicely as you suggest) say that I'd correctly stated things later in my post, and the wiseguy insisted I hadn't]. Thus, the reading comprehension bit.

My apologies to innocent bystanders that were caught in teh crossfire.

I'm extra-generous with knowledge checks: I'll tell someone whether taking 10 is good enough for them to recall a bit of information, and if it won't be, I'll let them roll. Taking 10 on a knowledge check, IMHO, involves searching their regular memory for it; rolling for it involves pulling the answer out of their butt.

See my post above. My generousity comes in terms of voiding the "no retry" as circumstances improve (time to really THINK about it ... time to check a library or other source ... etc).

If I ask you who wrote Huckleberry Finn, you might think back to your English class and remember that it was Mark Twain. If I ask you the name of the dog on Married With Children, you might have no idea at all, having seen the show only three times in your life -- and then, out of nowhere, the name "Buddy" pops into your head (or whatever the dog's name was).

The former represents taking 10; the latter represents rolling.

Daniel

The other side of this is -- someone who might normally be VERY able to answer questions,a nd actually KNOW the answer ... might get "brain lock" if required to come up with the answer RIGHT AWAY NOW NOW NOW HURRY HURRY RUSH RUSH (etc). The inability to "take 10" should never, IMO, result in knowing less than if you were asked the question in better circumstances.

 

[Kershek]

When doing an extended library search, we like to use a house rule that gives a synergy bonus if you have at least 5 ranks in concentration, simulating the fact that someone can be more focused on their research if they are good at concentrating.

 

[Artoomis]

Rating the library for a Circumstance bonus (either overall, or in specific subjects, or a combination of the two) models how complete the library's selection is, in regars to teh topic at hand (and some libraries may have NEGATIVE ratins ... for example, searching for ancient Druidic rites and rituals in a 12th-century christian monastery's library ... you'r emore likely to be hindered, relying on the library, then helped ...).

Oddly enough, a christian library might be a really, really good place to look. Except for fundamentalists, many feel that you need to "know thine enemy;" thus books on pagan religions would abound. Of course, they would not be in public collections where they might be misused.

So if you came looking to learn how to cast some ritual, your likely to get tossed out on your rear, or worse. If you come looking, say, to learn how to recognize some ritual so that you could prevent it from completing, that might be a different story.

Plot hooks abound!!

 

[Oni]

However, as I said before, I am ambivalent to the situation and am perfectly happy with my DM's ruling, but I am curious if there is anything in the rules that explicitly states that a 10 can be taken on spellcraft check in regards to learning a spell.

In Tome and Blood it very specifically say that you can take 10 on spellcraft checks when researching new spells, so I don't think it would be unreasonable for simply copying one.


As for exciting, I don't think so. Especially when you consider that is the main advantage of the wizard over the sorcerer, the ability to learn to spells. As someone that has been plagued by crappy die rolls at various times, I think it is exactly the opposite of fun to watch your hard earned reward slip out of your fingers because of one lousy die roll.