D&D 5E Taking Inherent Bonuses to the Next Level

Hawke

Explorer
I've been digging Inherent Bonuses in my current campaign - we started when 4E did and the change was a welcome one to a group that was tired of managing magical items and preferred to just cruise through the story with powers and boons.

We're set to finish our campaign here, and we're looking at running several shorter games with a lot of newcomers trying roleplaying out for the first time.

I've been kicking around what we can do to take inherent bonuses to the next level and maybe really simplify ability scores and/or "feat tax" feats to try and make the math work out okay but give the players more time to spend thinking about Powers/Themes.

Anybody talked about this before? I know I saw original monster manual aggregate monster stats - but it also occurs to me that the best place to start may be to look at the monster math and target the player's numbers by level as a function of the monster numbers. Essentially start from reverse.
 

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Hawke

Explorer
Level + 3 sounds nice... I was looking for a math thread with MM3 + Essentials monsters as a base but can only find earlier stuff. Anybody point me to anything else?
 

fba827

Adventurer
well you could use the companion rules (DMG2 i think) where companions have all their attack and defense modifiers based on level + X. So no feats, weapon bonuses, armor, etc to worry about.

and then just extend that to PCs where they only need to then pick their powers.

that might need a little tweaking (for instance, companions also assume that you don't get any class features that modify defenses, so those class +1 to defense X and Y may not apply. or stuff like the avenger's +2(?) to AC might not apply either, or the fighter's +1 to weapon attacks, and so on... depending on how you want to work out those sorts of details.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
Level + 3 sounds nice... I was looking for a math thread with MM3 + Essentials monsters as a base but can only find earlier stuff. Anybody point me to anything else?

Level + 3 (to hit) pretty much covers:

1/2 level mod (+15 at level 30)
+1 every 1/2 tier via enchantment (+6 at 30)
+1 to attack ability (assumed) at 8, 14, 21 and 28 (+4 at 30)
+1 per tier via expertise (+3 at 30)

That's +28 difference between 30 and 1, so it's pretty much works out to scaling by level if you eliminate those other sources of attack modifiers. There are other boosts (epic destinies that give an extra +2 to stats, paragon paths that give boost to attacks, etc).

Now, for damage, you have other factors. You are similarly starting with the 4 at level 1 (Level + 1) but you don't get the 1/2 level mod. So if you bake in just the enchantments and ability boosts, you'd get +10 over the course of 30 levels. So, basically 4 + 1/3 for damage. This still leaves stuff like weapon/implement focus and other damage boosting feats/items open. It does, however, require figuring out stuff like Twin Strike that does [W] with no ability mod, since the enchantment bonus is baked into the ability mod damage. [Ditto stuff that does ability mod damage but doesn't bake in enchantment bonuses like Furious Smash]. There would still be other options to boost damage, like focus, twf, etc. If you bake in the weapon focus (and nothing else) you can get it up to closer to 4 +1/2 level which is a bit cleaner than 1/3.

For Defenses:

With AC, you'd leave the shields alone ... they do a fixed bonus that doesn't scale up, so it's simple to add on top of other modifiers.

Heavy armor:

You start with 16-18 depending on the armor. You add, over the course of 30 levels:

+15 via 1/2 level mod
+6 via enchantment
+1 via armor spec at 11
+6 via masterwork qualities [assuming you take the one that boosts AC only]

For +28 over 30 levels. So a 15+1 per level in chain, 16+1 per level in scale, 17+1 per level in plate is approximately right, with shields (but not shield spec) allowed, and other class features, etc

For light armor, you would probably go with 10, 12 or 13 + abilty mod, so assuming the base +4 assumption we had been working on, means 14, 16 or 17 at level 1.

+15 via 1/2 level mod
+6 via enchantment
+1 armor spec at 11 (true, it only really counts for hide)
+4 via ability boosts (assuming you improve it at every opportunity)
+2 via masterwork (assuming you take the one that boosts AC only)

That's +28 again, so 13 + level in cloth, 15+ level in leather and 16 + level in hide are all options. This does mean that leather and chain are equivalent, which does hurt chain as an option by removing the benefits it has over leather but leaving it's penalties to skill and speed.

For NADs:

You get, over the course of the levels:

+15 via half level
+3 via improved defenses
+4 (to two of them) via ability score increase
+1, maybe +2 if it started with an odd number (to one) via automatic ability score increase
+6 via enchantment

So, the best case is +28, similar to the other ones.
For the bad defense, it gets effectively +25, which can be made up via one of the Epic Defense feats which give a +4 untyped bonus to a defense.

In that case, it can be a 13 + level to two defenses and 11 + level to a third (assuming a 18/18/12/10/10/10 ability spread) with bonuses via class, but stuff like the Belt of Vim (+1 to a defense per tier) is probably something that has to be disallowed as there are a number of "fixes" to improving defenses (various defense boosting feats, defense boosting items, etc).
 
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Dalamar

Adventurer
Just yesterday, I ran a game where I eliminated ability scores altogether.

I wanted the characters to be exceptionally good, so I set the modifiers to attack and damage both at level +5 (level getting halved for multitarget and multiattacks), plus proficiency bonus for weapon attacks.

I also set skills to five skills (plus automatics from race and/or class) at level +5, five skills at level +3 and the rest at level. This gives me the added bonus of allowing the skills to be used as attack scores for improvised attacks.

I set hitpoint and surge determination so that defenders had an effective Con 16, strikers and leaders a Con 14 and controllers a Con 12.

For Defenses I let the players choose one of Fort, Ref and Will at an ability score of +4, one at +3 and the last at +2, with AC using the same stat as Ref (or the same as Fort in the case of the group's earthstrength warden), added class and racial bonuses, and full level. And armour, of course.

The players all enjoyed, and battles seemed to go quickly, though we did start at level two, and the two battles that we had only contained level 1 creatures and level 1 minions.

As a parting note, I'd like to point out that the Player's Strategy Guide WotC published some time ago says that players are expected to have attacks against AC at level + 6, attacks against NADs at level + 4, AC at level + 15, and NADs at level + 13
 

Hawke

Explorer
Nice - excellent input. Glad to see others have done some playtesting of similar things. I think this can get my game going a little more quickly, with some more focus on other choices.

Really, these new theme articles in Dragon have been an inspiration for working toward a greater power focus.
 

I used the inherent bonuses too when I was playing 4E. IMO this is one of the ways that 4E fell short of it's possibilities. The designers didn't go far enough in streamlining/sorting DnD. So we end up stuck between 3E and a system like that proposed above. They took the step of giving everyone attacks based on the classes top ability score and made NADs depend on 2 scores but left HPs AC and initiative based on just one. They made every class (supposedly) equal at combat yet some classes still get more skills points, which is wrong- they should be equal outside of comabt/skill challenges/social as well.
I think the 'math base' should be as above and themes and powers and race (which fell from being a proposed major part of your PCs power in the pre4E books) should differentiate. It would certainly make calculating the numbers a hell of a lot easier!
So this thread and the answers above interest me a lot. If I play I want the classes PCs totally differentiated (like old school) or generic like above in the base; 4E seems neither chalk nor cheese.
 

corwyn77

Adventurer
My math differs a bit from the consensus here, but the end result is a bit similar. I modified this from a post on removing item dependency on the wizards boards.


Characters add: their full level to attacks and defenses (rather than half their level); half their level (rounded down) to damage rolls
This incorporates enhancement, item, and feat bonuses. So no expertise, weapon focus, bracers, staff of ruin, etc.

I like this because it puts all characters on a level playing field instead of enabling system mastery and being of a class that allows these specific items.


Character do not gain stats as they level up. Stat gains from other sources (Epic Destinies) still prevail. This keeps the skill gap from becoming a chasm at higher levels as well as keeping some other math issues in check.
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Neubert

First Post
My math differs a bit from the consensus here, but the end result is a bit similar. I modified this from a post on removing item dependency on the wizards boards.


Characters add: their full level to attacks and defenses (rather than half their level); half their level (rounded down) to damage rolls
This incorporates enhancement, item, and feat bonuses. So no expertise, weapon focus, bracers, staff of ruin, etc.

I like this because it puts all characters on a level playing field instead of enabling system mastery and being of a class that allows these specific items.


Character do not gain stats as they level up. Stat gains from other sources (Epic Destinies) still prevail. This keeps the skill gap from becoming a chasm at higher levels as well as keeping some other math issues in check.
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I am working on a system overhaul where I do the exact same thing. First I fixed the feat tax. Then removed dependance on magical items, as I didn't like how magical weapons are a requirement for an adventurer (just like in 3.x). It wasn't a big leap to also remove bonuses to ability scores (and at the same time also fix the growing gap between some NADs).

I haven't looked into damage yet, as I would like to keep that part of the system (feats that enable more damage, for example), but I will keep your solution in mind :)
 

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