D&D General Taking the "Dungeons" out of D&D

[ART!]

I keep thinking some mutated version of D&D combat could be used to emulate social stuff, and exploration, too. Give social encounters something like initiative, actions, bonus actions, reactions, movement, AoO, to-hit rolls, damage rolls, HP, NPC features, legendary actions - the works.

I know, I know - that sounds crazy/stupid/ridiculous. Basically, I just don't want new systems for those things, and it just makes sense to use a structure - if not the exact same details - that people are already familiar with.

 

[Mistwell]

I think skill challenges were a good component of 4e that should have been developed more and introduced to 5e, and adding skill challenges to 5e would not make it less "D&D" in feel. And I think skill challenges, while still helpful in a dungeon setting, can be even more helpful outside of a dungeon setting to achieve some of the goals the OP is looking for.

Another aspect I think needs work, and which would not harm the "feel" of D&D, is more developed overland travel rules.

Some simple but interesting mass combat rules would be helpful, and not detract from the "feel" of D&D.

Finally, I think some additional feats and subclasses tailored towards the social tier of D&D would be helpful for those goals, again without detracting from the "feel" of it being D&D.

 

[Asisreo]

Nothing wrong with it, just, you know, know what you’re setting yourself up for. I very often see DMs disregard the guidelines in the rulebook and then express frustration with problems that occur as a result of ignoring those guidelines. Having fewer than the recommended encounters per day and then complaining the game is too easy is just one example, but a fairly common one in my experience.

The difference between, say, adding criticals to ability checks and running a certain amount of encounters a day is that the rules tell you how to play with ability checks, and recommends you to stay within the rules.

There is no such recommendation in any of the books that balance hinges on 6-8 encounters a day, nor has any designer made such claims.

The very thought of a "recommended adventuring day" is a misconception. Another one is 2 short rest. If anyone can provide an official passage that says that a DM is recommended to run a 6-8, 2SR encounter day for balance, anyone in this thread can quote it or link it here. Otherwise, I claim that balance is found in all encounter numbers regardless of short rests and I'll provide my reasonings. Most likely in another thread since I don't want to derail this one any farther.

But first, I want to see if anyone has found such a quote or passage.

 

[Charlaquin]

The difference between, say, adding criticals to ability checks and running a certain amount of encounters a day is that the rules tell you how to play with ability checks, and recommends you to stay within the rules.

There is no such recommendation in any of the books that balance hinges on 6-8 encounters a day, nor has any designer made such claims.

The very thought of a "recommended adventuring day" is a misconception. Another one is 2 short rest. If anyone can provide an official passage that says that a DM is recommended to run a 6-8, 2SR encounter day for balance, anyone in this thread can quote it or link it here. Otherwise, I claim that balance is found in all encounter numbers regardless of short rests and I'll provide my reasonings.

But first, I want to see if anyone has found such a quote or passage.

Basic rules, chapter 13.

The Adventuring Day
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

In the same way you figure out the difficulty of an encounter, you can use the XP values of monsters and other opponents in an adventure as a guideline for how far the party is likely to progress.

For each character in the party, use the Adventuring Day XP table to estimate how much XP that character is expected to earn in a day. Add together the values of all party members to get a total for the party’s adventuring day. This provides a rough estimate of the adjusted XP value for encounters the party can handle before the characters will need to take a long rest.

Adventuring Day XP

Level	Adjusted XP per Day per Character
1st	300
2nd	600
3rd	1,200
4th	1,700
5th	3,500
6th	4,000
7th	5,000
8th	6,000
9th	7,500
10th	9,000
11th	10,500
12th	11,500
13th	13,500
14th	15,000
15th	18,000
16th	20,000
17th	25,000
18th	27,000
19th	30,000
20th	40,000

Short Rests
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

 

[Reynard]

I am leaning more and more toward milestone based rests. "You can rest once you reach Safeville. To get there you can take the long way around the Felfends, or drive right through them and hope to avoid the Bog Men."

 

[Charlaquin]

I am leaning more and more toward milestone based rests. "You can rest once you reach Safeville. To get there you can take the long way around the Felfends, or drive right through them and hope to avoid the Bog Men."

Simply ruling that you must be in a safe location to gain the benefits of a long rest accomplishes this goal without having to make rests a meta-game resource.

 

[Asisreo]

Basic rules, chapter 13.

The Adventuring Day
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

In the same way you figure out the difficulty of an encounter, you can use the XP values of monsters and other opponents in an adventure as a guideline for how far the party is likely to progress.

For each character in the party, use the Adventuring Day XP table to estimate how much XP that character is expected to earn in a day. Add together the values of all party members to get a total for the party’s adventuring day. This provides a rough estimate of the adjusted XP value for encounters the party can handle before the characters will need to take a long rest.

Adventuring Day XP

Level	Adjusted XP per Day per Character
1st	300
2nd	600
3rd	1,200
4th	1,700
5th	3,500
6th	4,000
7th	5,000
8th	6,000
9th	7,500
10th	9,000
11th	10,500
12th	11,500
13th	13,500
14th	15,000
15th	18,000
16th	20,000
17th	25,000
18th	27,000
19th	30,000
20th	40,000

Short Rests
In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

Read it again: it does not say "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, the adventuring day is balanced around about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day."

Nor does it say "Over the course of a full adventuring day, the adventuring day is balanced around two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day."

What it tells you is with a typical adventure (probably a dungeon-crawl based on what a typical D&D game was before 5e, no feats and no multiclassing) and with average luck (no nat20's and average damage), the party will probably not TPK before 6-8 encounters. It also says that the party will need 2 short rests at certain intervals, not that the game assumes they will take it.

 

[Lanefan]

Read it again: it does not say "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, the adventuring day is balanced around about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day."

Nor does it say "Over the course of a full adventuring day, the adventuring day is balanced around two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day."

What it tells you is with a typical adventure (probably a dungeon-crawl based on what a typical D&D game was before 5e, no feats and no multiclassing) and with average luck (no nat20's and average damage), the party will probably not TPK before 6-8 encounters. It also says that the party will need 2 short rests at certain intervals, not that the game assumes they will take it.

The very fact they put that piece in there at all is a clobber-upside-the-head hint saying 'these are the assumptions the game's been designed around'.

 

[Charlaquin]

Read it again: it does not say "Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, the adventuring day is balanced around about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day."

Nor does it say "Over the course of a full adventuring day, the adventuring day is balanced around two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day."

What it tells you is with a typical adventure (probably a dungeon-crawl based on what a typical D&D game was before 5e, no feats and no multiclassing) and with average luck (no nat20's and average damage), the party will probably not TPK before 6-8 encounters. It also says that the party will need 2 short rests at certain intervals, not that the game assumes they will take it.

And you think they didn’t design the classes to perform with relative parity around these assumptions?

 

[Charlaquin]

The very fact they put that piece in there at all is a clobber-upside-the-head hint saying 'these are the assumptions the game's been designed around'.

This.