Talent Trees - in, out, shake them all about?

[Plane Sailing]

One of the things that we've not really heard much about are Talent Trees - as far as I know at the moment the only things we've actually heard are that SWSE can be seen as a test run for some 4e ideas (and talent trees are implemented really well there) and the following from an interview with Chris Perkins:

We’ve been reading a lot about talent trees in 4th Edition, similar to those in Blizzard Entertainment’s Diablo and World of Warcraft games. Will 4th Edition characters progress similarly to those in an MMORPG and was this sort of play dynamic the inspiration for the new 4th Edition rules?

Talent trees aren’t unique to MMORPGs. Wizards has produced other games that use talent trees, such as the d20 Modern Roleplaying Game and the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition. The theory of game design, regardless of platform, is constantly evolving. We’ve taken our gaming experiences over the past decade, as well as player feedback on the games and supplements we’ve produced in that time period, to build a system for character creation and advancement in 4th Edition that draws inspiration from numerous sources, but isn’t exactly like anything that’s been done before.

So - Talent Trees - sounds like they are in, they are related to character creation and advancement, but they are not exactly like anything done before (in SWSE and d20modern, I presume).

Anyone heard any other facts?

Rumours?

Wild Speculation?

It sounds like this might be pretty fundamental to class design and character advancement, but we don't actually know anything really yet

Cheers!

 

[Plane Sailing]

The design and development article about Race includes the following (my emphasis). I wonder whether the 'powers' here are analogous to talent trees? They are specifically distinct from feats, for instance

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hmmm..... I seem to recall a casual mentioning of Talent Trees from one of the designers....
i'll see if I can dig up the link.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think there is going to be a Feat chapter and a Power chapter in the PHB. While I really do not think that they are going to increase the amount of trees for Feats, instead some of the Powers (perhaps they are the per-encounter abilities) can be very much tree-based even if they aren't called Talents.

 

[GreatLemur]

While I really do not think that they are going to increase the amount of trees for Feats...

Yeah, in fact, I believe we've heard that feats are actually going to have fewer prerequisites, this time around.

 

[Aage]

IMO, make feats (at will) and special abilities (could be called anything from spells, prayers, powers, manoeuvres, skill tricks, whatever) (/enc and /day)...

 

[Scribble]

Yeah I'm guessing we won't see "trees."

I'm guessing it'll be akin to the way the ToB stuff works... There are definite "patterns" but you don't really have to follow any kind of path. A lot of the powers work well in conjunction with each other, but they aren't requirements.

I think a similar thing will happen with feats... You'll see patterns, but not chains, and maybe even "level" feats... Like these feats can only b taken at level x and higher type of thing.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I like the idea of feats that get better as you level up. Makes feats that where good at 1st level that suck as 10th level worth using if it gets better.

 

[Ranger REG]

I like the idea of feats that get better as you level up. Makes feats that where good at 1st level that suck as 10th level worth using if it gets better.

I'm opposed to feats that offers level-based or level-dependent benefit (e.g., +x per level bonus). Better to use feat tree to improve a benefit's bonus (e.g, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, etc.).

Level-based benefits should be in the form of class features, be it talents or default class features, IMHO.

 

[Victim]

I'm opposed to feats that offers level-based or level-dependent benefit (e.g., +x per level bonus). Better to use feat tree to improve a benefit's bonus (e.g, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, etc.).

Level-based benefits should be in the form of class features, be it talents or default class features, IMHO.

I disagree. There's a very significant cost to minor improvements if you have to continue sinking resources into a tree. It often means getting low level abilities at high levels.