tanari are just one "type" of demon. What are all the rest in the infinite Abyss?

[PallidPatience]

Dead is pretty much correct. Planescape says that the true natives of the 9 Hells are the baatorians, and the baatezu came later and took it from the baatorians. The evidence is that lemures are not naturally formed from the fabric of the Nine Hells, but larvae are. The larvae have to be gathered and transformed into lemures by the baatezu, or else they (the theory says) will develop into the ancient baatorians.

That kind of gives me a bit of inspiration to write a group of near-insectoid Baatorians, a kind of twisted, evil version of the Formians...

 

[Particle_Man]

When Modrons go bad....

 

[Gez]

Non-tanar'ri demons: Shadow demon, bebilith, quasit, retriever (sorta), blood fiend (sorta), skulvyn, wastrilith, abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, abyssal ravager, zovvut.

(The retrievers and blood fiends are constructs and undead, respectively, but they're listed under "demon" nevertheless.)

The Fiend Folio was a bit strange on this respect. Both the Blood Fiend and the Abyssal Ghoul are extraplanar undead from the Abyss, but one is lumped with the demons and the other isn't. The Skulvyn is not a Tanar'ri but can be summoned by the Myrmyxicus' summon tanar'ri ability...

 

[Erik Mona]

Ah. Topics like this make me wish I had all kinds of time to freelance. As Demiurge mentioned, I cover one such subrace, the qlippoth, extensively in "Armies of the Abyss," which was later compiled and expanded (by other writers) in the excellent "Book of Fiends," published by Green Ronin. If you're really interested in the Abyss, I strongly suggest checking out the former. The latter is of interest if your interests expand to other non-demon fiend flavors.

It's not official, but it ain't half bad.

--Erik Mona

 

[reanjr]

Is every demon published by WotC a ta'nari by default?

Likewise, is every devil published by WotC a baatezu by default?

In one Planescape product there's mention of "baatorians". Some ancient devil race or something. Not sure on the details.

Are ta'nari and baatezu what you'd call "races"?

Note: Alot of this info is from Planescape and may not officially apply in 3e, but I don't think I am contradicted anything published in 3e.

I don't believe they are defaulted to tanar'ri and baatezu. I think they default to "other" unless called out specifically. As someone who owns every single Planescape product, I can assure you, you have about as much information on the ancient Baatorians as I. They were there for flavor and possible adventure ideas.

The term Baatezu consists of a small, distinct set of creatures. They are indeed the same "race". A Pit Fiend was once a Lemure. He just "grew up". Interestingly, there is another Baatorian race - the Nupperibo - that can be mutated into a Baatezu. Most scholars actualy think it is a Baatezu because Baatezu can descend from them. In fact, it is rumored by some Baatezu (who are untrustworthy to say the least, but they're not 'Loths) that Nupperibo would naturally ascend to be that ancient Baatorian race referred to. That is why they are hunted down and used as fodder for the Blood War, or mutation stock.

I think 3e really messed alot of things up when it comes to outer planars. See, there are Baatezu who are all a specific race of devil. But what is a devil? A native to Baator? But the Barghest is native to Baator. What is the Barghest? Is it a devil? I would think so. But they're not listed under Devil in the SRD.

The term devil (I'll just talk about Devils as they are easier to categorize) is really just a label used by primes to categorize creatures that they know very little about (the Tanar'ri and Baatezu often find it insulting to be referred to as a Demon or Devil, especially vice versa). They are categorized by abilities rather than by idealistic, biological, or native link. Devils have telepathy. They are from Baator. They usually are resistant to acid and cold and immune to fire and poison. This is what defined Devil.

So anyway, you can use the terms as you want. If you are really interested in using "Baatezu" and "Tanar'ri" 3rd edition will not really help you. Sure, some of them are labeled as such, but they're just a bunch of stats. If you want to come up with your own ideas and motivations for Baatezu and Tanar'ri, then you don't really need to know if any individual creature is one of those because it's your game and you can change it how you will.

If instead, you want to use them as originally presented, I suggested you pick up a PDF copy of Faces of Evil: The Fiends. It's a pretty authoritative and definitive guide on Tanar'ri, Baatezu, and Yugoloths, with secondary attention paid to other Fiendish creatures (such as the Gehreleths). It is extraordinarily rules-light (maybe 5 pages total, discluding some charts in the back) and can be dropped into any 3e campaign. It's also thoroughly enjoyable to read, cover to cover. So if you don't use the info, you haven't wasted the money.

As an important note, I believe Wizards has added 3 new Devils (at least 2 new Abishai which should be entirely ignored in my opinion) and 2 new Yugoloths between their various monster supplements (I may be remembering incorrectly since Wizards muddled their fiendish monster line by publishing them across 4 separate books). You should be able to fit them in pretty easily with the information from 2e.

 

[reanjr]

Yugoloths aren't directly related to either Tanari and Baatezu, I think?

I don't see why you couldn't add more types. Some sort of explanation for why their not commonly known might be needed. Perhaps they were trapped in a layer (or 1,000,000) that got cut off from the rest. Possibly from some pseudonatural parallel abyss? Could well be those Baatorians you mention?

I reckon that a whole new type could make for a fun campaign driver. Some force powerful enough to upset the balance in the Blood War... Has potential?

Actually, if you take some Yugoloth propaganda at face value (a bad idea), Baatezu and Tanar'ri are actually both descended from Yugoloths who purified their race by expunging the law and chaos into larva. These larva mutate into Baatezu and Tanar'ri respectively, depending on which plane they end up on. (IIRC)

And while someone's campaign is their own, these additional races would not stand a chance of rising in power. This is especially true of Baator and Gehenna.

 

[reanjr]

Unless I am mistaken, the term "Baatorian" would merely reference an inhabitant of the plane of Baator, also known as the Nine Hells. i.e. it's a generic term for a devil.

I believe that Yugoloths are neither demon nor devil. They're the "Neutral" nasty, whereas the demons are the Chaotic nasty, and devils are the Lawful nasty.

Before TSR got away from using religious terms, Yugoloths were known as Daemons and Gehreleths were known as Demodands.

 

[reanjr]

Non-tanar'ri demons: Shadow demon, bebilith, quasit, retriever (sorta), blood fiend (sorta), skulvyn, wastrilith, abyssal maw, abyssal skulker, abyssal ravager, zovvut.

Maybe 3e changed it, but Wastrilith should be a Tanar'ri. They (and I think the Hezrou to a certain extent) are the Tanar'ric naval force in the Blood War and attack Baatorian ships traveling down the Styx (wastrilith are immune to the effects of the water, which is why they have this job).

 

[reanjr]

I'm of the opinion that the statement that "they are just one type of demon" is meant to suggest that the DM may create any kind of demon he/she wants and claim it comes from the Abyss. I'm of the mind that the Tanari are the most "lawful" of demons within the Abyss. They are mentioned because they are the only ones that have any kind of organization even as loose as theirs.

Actually, there are Tanar'ri that don't fit into the system at all. The Yochlols for instance are a particular form of Tanar'ri created by Lolth. They serve her and couldn't care less about the Blood War or Tanar'ri in general. There are other species that are unique to a single layer (of which there are at least 600-700). What makes a Tanar'ri a Tanar'ri is that they go through stages of mutation and can change into another form of Tanar'ri.

Basically what separates a babau from a quasit is that the babau can someday be a Balor (without the help of polymorph or shapechange). The quasit is a quasit.

 

[Shemeska]

Besides what has already been mentioned..

Non Tanar'ri demons:

Abyssal Bats / Varrangoins (sp?): they used to control a much larger portion of the Abyss, though their civilization has largely crumbled to dust. How large it was is an open question.


Regarding the Yugoloths: The 'loths are native to the Gray Waste, their original home plane, though they have since expanded into Gehenna as well, and have designs on Carceri. Yugoloths have no direct link to mortal petitioners, unlike Tanar'ri and Baatezu which are formed almost exclusively from mortal petitioners. The 'loths are either formed directly from the essence of their home plane itself, or born from two Yugoloths (lesser Yugoloths mate to breed mezzoloths, Nycaloths truebreed nycaloths, Arcanaloths truebreed Arcanaloths, and Ultroloths can give birth to Arcanaloths by parthanogenesis)[From Faces of Evil: The Fiends' the definative fiendish ecology book]

The Yugoloths also claim, and have substantial evidence to back it up, that they created the Baatezu and Tanar'ri at the urging of their own makers, the Baernaloths.


On Ancient Baatorians: Larvae in Baator will, over a long period of time, mutate into Nupperibos. Given even more time the Nupperibo will mature into an advanced form that is both intelligent and has energy draining tentacles. Over an even longer period of time these will mutate into a sluglike entity that is immune to anything short of a wish.

There was an advanced Nupperibo help as a curiousity by the former Kyton lord of Jangling Hiter. It was given to him by, you guessed it, a Yugoloth. The Yugoloths, for unknown reasons, have been known to buy Nupperibos from the Baatezu who otherwise kill and force Nupperibos into lemure status so they can be forced into the Baatezu heirarchy. (It appeared in 'Tales of the Infinite Staircase')

There was also a mature Baatorian lurking in the caves of the 5th layer of Baator IIRC. (This critter was obliquely mentioned in the 3e MotP. The original appeared in 'Hellbound: The Blood War')

In the glaciers of Stygia, the forms frozen in the ice seen in combat with Archons and Aasimon are in fact Ancient Baatorians in various ranges of maturity. (3e MotP, 'Planes of Law' box set)

It's always been my thought that the Baernaloths urged the Yugoloths to create the Tanar'ri and Baatezu in order to remove the original races of both planes from power and install races of their own creation that they could one day control. It's rumored that when created, the original Tanar'ri and Baatezu had things written into their essence that would allow them to be controlled like puppets when the Yugoloths wished to see the Blood War end.