Tasha's Hideous Laughter - broken?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Depends on the level of the encounter. The bad guys may be able to DDoor or Dispel Magic, too.

A Helpless target is a sitting duck to a Full Iterative Sneak Attack, and may therefore be killable in <1 round. That is a nice option at middling or higher levels.

 

[Kat']

THL only works well against creatures with the same type as the caster (side note: the-4 DC really really hurts...) and is remarkably efficient at low levels, but less at high levels, given that save progression usually is faster than spell DC progression. And at low levels, it won't have that long a duration. Good, but not overwhelmingly so.

 

[mvincent]

It seems like blindness (also 2nd level) is about as harsh as hideous laughter, but permanent, and no +4 save for non-humanoids.

And while bards can get Hideous laughter earlier... it's one of the few things that bards have going for them.

Having just killed a PC with hold person (& CdG), I'm fairly sure that my player would have prefered that the NPC Bard (in the canned adventure I used) had known Hideous laughter instead.

 

[Deset Gled]

Something that I just thought of from the spell description: a person under the effects of THL can still make a 5 foot step (if the DM allows them when prone) or make an attack of opportunity, as neither of those are actions.

 

[mvincent]

a person under the effects of THL can still make a 5 foot step (if the DM allows them when prone)

You can crawl while prone (i.e. that is the whole reason for having crawling as an option), but you can't take 5' steps (as there would be no point to having the crawling option if you could). From the RotG (if desired):
"Movement While Prone
When you're lying on the ground, you can move; however, you must crawl to do so. You crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

If you weren't prone, the RotG (if desired) still says:
"The rules don't say so, but it's best to assume that you cannot take a 5-foot step unless you can take at least a move action during your turn."

or make an attack of opportunity, as neither of those are actions.

The spell description says:
"The subject can take no actions while laughing"

and the RotG (if desired) says:
"In general, if you cannot use a standard action during your turn, you also cannot make an attack of opportunity during someone else's turn. When the notes on conditions in Part One say that you cannot act (for example, when stunned), you cannot make an attack of opportunity."

 

[Deset Gled]

RotG[/url] (if desired)

Do you have anything for those of us that don't desire to rely on the RotG? AFAICT, the claims I have made are completely accurate based on just the core rule books.

The spell description says:
"The subject can take no actions while laughing"

and the RotG (if desired) says:
"In general, if you cannot use a standard action during your turn, you also cannot make an attack of opportunity during someone else's turn. When the notes on conditions in Part One say that you cannot act (for example, when stunned), you cannot make an attack of opportunity."

Even using this RotG quote, I don't see my point being refuted. The spell says the target can take "no actions", while the quote applies when you "cannot act". Actions are a defined game term, acting is not. I would argue that any time you use do anyhting like make an AoO, take a 5 foot step, or choose to Delay, you are effectively "acting" despite the fact that you are explictly not using an "action".

 

[mvincent]

Do you have anything for those of us that don't desire to rely on the RotG?

If desired: common sense or Hypersmurf.

 

[eamon]

Consider also that "action" is used both as a game-defined term and as a normal English word. It's not well defined; and common sense suggests that someone doing the ROFLMAO isn't also to the AoO dance. There's no real way of distinguishing between game defined and normal terms. Taking a 5-foot step or making an attack of opportunity are actions in the broad sense, and I think that's enough to rule them out. The rules break down too easily if you're willing to be that literalistic about interpretations.

However, not here:

Further, even the "Not an action" category specifies that they "are considered an inherent part of doing something else". But there's no other action you could do, so even "not an action"s like 5-foot steps can't be taken, since you need to take them as part of another action.

In addition, even if you were to rule that you're able to take five foot steps, when you're prone your movement is at best hampered (and thus you can't take 5 foot steps) or more literally, you don't have a listed movement speed for it (and thus you can't take 5-foot steps).

Concerning the ability to make AoO's: you can't make a melee attack into the adjacent squares (which would take an action) so you're not threatening anybody - rendering the AoO question somewhat moot, since there's nobody to hit...

Finally, the flavor and intent of the spell are obvious.

 

[Deset Gled]

Further, even the "Not an action" category specifies that they "are considered an inherent part of doing something else". But there's no other action you could do, so even "not an action"s like 5-foot steps can't be taken, since you need to take them as part of another action.

"Something else" is different than "another action". Lying on the ground or laughing could be considered "something else." An AoO can't be done as part of "another action" since an action is something that takes place on your initiative turn.

In addition, even if you were to rule that you're able to take five foot steps, when you're prone your movement is at best hampered (and thus you can't take 5 foot steps) or more literally, you don't have a listed movement speed for it (and thus you can't take 5-foot steps).

There is nothing in the rules to disallow 5 foot steps when prone. There have been other discussions about this here. While it is not something that I would generally agree with, I would say that if a DM decides to allow 5 foot steps when prone under normal circumstances, they should also allow them when under effects of THL as well, for consistency.

Concerning the ability to make AoO's: you can't make a melee attack into the adjacent squares (which would take an action) so you're not threatening anybody - rendering the AoO question somewhat moot, since there's nobody to hit...

Following this logic, anyone who has already acted in a round doesn't threaten. If you've already cast a spell or done another standard action, you can't attack into adjacent squares (since that would take an action). Since you can't make a melee attack into the adjacent squares, you're not threatening anybody.

Finally, the flavor and intent of the spell are obvious.

If the normal use of the spell proves overpowered, and an alternate, literal interpretation lessens the power of the spell, doesn't the literal interpretation start to seem like a more reasonable one?

 

[mvincent]

There is nothing in the rules to disallow 5 foot steps when prone.

It's stated in the FAQ and in the Rules of the Game, and implied by the core rules by the presence of the crawling option, and by inability to make 5' steps when your movement is hindered. I'm surprised that one might consider it up for debate.

I would say that if a DM decides to allow 5 foot steps when prone under normal circumstances, they should also allow them when under effects of THL as well, for consistency.

While the issue is moot for me, I enjoy such discussions. Based on this, do you believe such DM's (for consistency) should also allow 5' steps for characters that are dazed, cowering, stunned or fascinated?