Technical thread for Server Discussion (merged)
- Thread starter Piratecat
- Start date
BSF
Explorer
Desert Gled,
I believe you are operating under a false premise, though I can understand where you are coming from. At the time that particular thread came up, the answer was a rapid-fire one that did not delve into details. That isn't meant as criticism toward anyone because there really isn't a need to provide a detailed summary of expenses to anyone except Morrus. But when you start considering the cost differences between a hosted site and a co-located server, there are a lot of variables you need to remember.
Hosted sites have a low entry point. Basically, it is cheap to get in the door and do some basic site hosting. Depending on the service plan, you start with a little disk space and a little bandwidth, and you can move up to lots of disk space with lost of bandwidth. Nevertheless, you are still sharing that server with other sites. You are sharing that processing power that indexes and presents data. You are sharing that memory space that caches your database. A hosted site is not a very good option for a database driven forum site such as EN World. If you think the site is slow now, imagine sharing the server with anywhere from 9 - 49 other sites. (Trust me, my DM runs a hosted site for our game forums. Sometimes that site, with all 6 of us online, serving those 11,000+ posts in Vbulletin is almost as slow as EN World.)
You can also purchase a dedicated server site. Now,this has potential to be a better option than a co-located server. Cedant offers a dedicated server with good processors and good RAM for $379/month. This isn't a bad option, except for support issues. Well, and the fact that the biggest server option they currently offer isn't really any faster than a dual-system configuration. Cedant offers a range of support issues as cost/incident and monthly costs.
Really, this is a great service plan and is aggressively priced. However, it is still not really that much better than co-location at Cyberstreet where the people there provide service above and beyond the call of duty (or the letter of contracts.) Actually, that would be no better and potentialy worse.
If you can exist without ever having problems, then the most cost effective solution is an easy sell. But when you do have problems do you really want to call a tech so you can borrow 10 minutes of their time to read a console message? (This is one of the free benefits of Cedant.) Or would you rather ask somebody that knows the system and cares that you are down to help you fix the problem?
Server co-location with payments for bandwidth allows you to have your preferred technical resource on site to fix problems. It also allows you to put the hardware of choice in the datacenter. A hosted site is insufficient for EN World. (Certainly, I do not want that type of performance hit.) Paying for a dedicated server is a possibility. But right now the cost of a dedicated server does not appear to be significantly less than a co-located server and the troubleshooting considerations are a big factor in whether that cost difference is worthwhile. Community Supporter Accounts might be able to sustain a dedicated server, but we would have potential issues with growth. Right now, co-location at Cyberstreet might be slightly more expensive, but the intangible cost of good customer service needs to be factored in. Personally, I think it is worth it.
I believe you are operating under a false premise, though I can understand where you are coming from. At the time that particular thread came up, the answer was a rapid-fire one that did not delve into details. That isn't meant as criticism toward anyone because there really isn't a need to provide a detailed summary of expenses to anyone except Morrus. But when you start considering the cost differences between a hosted site and a co-located server, there are a lot of variables you need to remember.
Hosted sites have a low entry point. Basically, it is cheap to get in the door and do some basic site hosting. Depending on the service plan, you start with a little disk space and a little bandwidth, and you can move up to lots of disk space with lost of bandwidth. Nevertheless, you are still sharing that server with other sites. You are sharing that processing power that indexes and presents data. You are sharing that memory space that caches your database. A hosted site is not a very good option for a database driven forum site such as EN World. If you think the site is slow now, imagine sharing the server with anywhere from 9 - 49 other sites. (Trust me, my DM runs a hosted site for our game forums. Sometimes that site, with all 6 of us online, serving those 11,000+ posts in Vbulletin is almost as slow as EN World.)
You can also purchase a dedicated server site. Now,this has potential to be a better option than a co-located server. Cedant offers a dedicated server with good processors and good RAM for $379/month. This isn't a bad option, except for support issues. Well, and the fact that the biggest server option they currently offer isn't really any faster than a dual-system configuration. Cedant offers a range of support issues as cost/incident and monthly costs.
Really, this is a great service plan and is aggressively priced. However, it is still not really that much better than co-location at Cyberstreet where the people there provide service above and beyond the call of duty (or the letter of contracts.) Actually, that would be no better and potentialy worse.
If you can exist without ever having problems, then the most cost effective solution is an easy sell. But when you do have problems do you really want to call a tech so you can borrow 10 minutes of their time to read a console message? (This is one of the free benefits of Cedant.) Or would you rather ask somebody that knows the system and cares that you are down to help you fix the problem?
Server co-location with payments for bandwidth allows you to have your preferred technical resource on site to fix problems. It also allows you to put the hardware of choice in the datacenter. A hosted site is insufficient for EN World. (Certainly, I do not want that type of performance hit.) Paying for a dedicated server is a possibility. But right now the cost of a dedicated server does not appear to be significantly less than a co-located server and the troubleshooting considerations are a big factor in whether that cost difference is worthwhile. Community Supporter Accounts might be able to sustain a dedicated server, but we would have potential issues with growth. Right now, co-location at Cyberstreet might be slightly more expensive, but the intangible cost of good customer service needs to be factored in. Personally, I think it is worth it.
BardStephenFox said:
Thanks BardStephenFox, you answered a lot of my questions about the different options. I still am a little perplexed when I look at the numbers, though.
You cited a price of $379/month for dedicated hosting. After checking a few websites, I found this price to be about right for a number of sources, with servers that seem like they would fit the specs Pirate gave in the announcement. But right now, ENWorld already pays $400/month for colocation with Cyberstreet (and that's for a single server, it will be raised for a dual server setup). For the sake of simplicity, rounding the cost of dedicated hosting to $400/month means that the monthly cost is about the same for both options.
Given this, I just don't see why we're biting the bullet and paying $3000+ for ENWorld to own the server. As I understand it, getting dedicated hosting would mean that we wouldn't have to pay the huge startup cost of the server, the hardware would essentially be insured (if hardware breaks, it would be the responsibility of the hoster to fix it), and we could have 24/7 tech support. The dedicated hosting price also includes software and upgrades (I don't know if Cyberstreet does or not). Even if we ended up paying for some high level tech support when something goes wrong, I kinda doubt we could end up spending more than that $3000+ over three years. I understand that Cyberstreet has been very friendly with us in the past, but given ENWorlds history of less-than-optimal perfomance and the big price difference, I just don't see this as being worth it.
I understand that I may not be seeing the big picture here (and there's some things I haven't made a comparison of due to lack of info, like bandwidth). By all means, please explain it to me further if you feel up to it. More importantly, I know my opinion doesn't really matter in the long run, as I'm not going to be the one making the final decision, and I certainly am not going to try to work against the ENWorld team as they try and make everything work out. But this is the second time in a short while that a drive has been needed to save ENWorld financially, and I can't help but wonder if there are some options that aren't being taken simply because some of the higher ups want to be "friends" with our current host.
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Bandwidth plays a huge part... that's what we're really paying for, far more than physical hosting. I'll see if I can get some solid figures. Meanwhile, what bandwidth allowances did those sites you scoped out allow for?
Understand that I don't want to make this a "secondguess the admins!" thread, but I'm pleased to brainstorm where we can.
Understand that I don't want to make this a "secondguess the admins!" thread, but I'm pleased to brainstorm where we can.
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Piratecat said:
Here's some quick info I cut-and-pasted from some websites:
From aplus.net:
Premium XR Dedicated Hosting
$349/mo, $399 Setup Fee
Dual Intel XEON 2.8GHz 533MHz FSB with HyperThreading
2048 MB Dual Channel DDR266 ECC (upgrades up to 4GB available)
36GB SCSI Hard Drive (upgrades to 126GB Ultra SCSI)
Adaptec 29320LP U320 SCSI Controller
Intel Pro100M Network Card
1000GB bandwidth
Extra throughput - $3/GB
Free Managed Services
This one is highly rated by cnet and others. It has many optional upgrades (all for a cost, of course).
From cedant.com
Premier DXL Dedicated Hosting
Monthly Fee: $379 Setup Fee: $349
Dual Intel Xeon 2.8 GHz, 533 MHz FSB
2048 MB ECC RAM (upgrades up to 4GB available)
36 GB SCSI Hard Drive (upgrades to 126GB Ultra SCSI)
750 GB Monthly Transfer included (Non-Cogent)
Adaptec 29320LP U320 SCSI Controller
Intel Pro100M Network Card
This is the host BSF mentioned.
Hope this helps. There's a lot of variables you can look for in this kind of thing (hardware, managing, price), so I limited myself a lot. If you think you're looking for something different, feel free to say so.
But it really does come down to bandwidth issues. I am not sure the bandwidth plans at any of the ISPs I have looked at will be sufficient. Let me hash out some thoughts in my head and then try to re-post later.Morrus said:
According to a sales rep (using live chat), aplus.net offers a 100Mb data pipe. I believe they would probably offer more for a raise in cost. Cedant doesn't have such a feature, but I imagine it's the same (note the 100Mb network card). I believe this is actually a level up from Cyberstreet's 10Mb fibre.
At this point, I should probably note that I'm not affiliated with either of these companies, just in case anyone thinks I'm trying to make a commission or something
.Psionicist
Explorer
Deset Gled has some interesting suggestions, but I am confident the best performance will be achieved with a dedicated ENW-server. You can customize the hardware _and_ software for ENW's needs. (linux+apache+mysql+mmcache is a winning combo).
Where is Adlon anyway? He can give us interesting info about such things as battery backups (UPS), the physical connection (I've read both 10 mbit and 100 mbit in this thread) etc. If you read this, thanks!
Where is Adlon anyway? He can give us interesting info about such things as battery backups (UPS), the physical connection (I've read both 10 mbit and 100 mbit in this thread) etc. If you read this, thanks!
