Tell me about BESMd20

[Greg K]

I am looking for another game-something that can handle a variety of genres. I have ruled out Spycraft for three reasons: first, I dislike the classes ; second, I heard that there is a lot to learn; and three I love several 3rd party d20 Modern supplements (i.e, Blood & [X], Psychic's Handbook, and Elements of Magic: ME and want to keep using them. However, despite my love of the d20M supplements mentioned, I really don't want to run d20M either.

This brings me to BESMd20 . A few things that I have heard intrigue me. First, I have heard that it can be done either with or without classes. Second, there are optional rules for implementing the M&M damage save system ( a big plus, because I prefer the damage save system to HP or WP/VP). Beyond these two things, I don't much about the game except that it uses the d20 resolution system.

My questions regarding BESMD20 are:
1) how does it play?
2) How different is it from standard d20 (Modern or DND)?
3) How hard would it be for me to implement the d20M products mentioned above?

 

[LordEther]

Well, here goes a little primer... the game is point-based. You build your characters on a set of Character Points (hereafter described as CP) from the bottom up, in a manner similar to M&M. Classes consist of set "packages" of 10-CP/level modifications (which is why you can go classless if you like... basically each character gets 10 CP per level... with one exception, but there's no reason to go into that here).

A damage save mechanic similar to M&M's is possible (as one of the variant rules introduced, along with others for chases, large battles, and more).

As to your questions:

1) Well, in my opinion, it's play will depend a great deal on which rules you use, what kinds of limitations you impose, and how your players are. For example, if you go classless and your players are clever min-maxers, you might want to limit additions to ability scores (as, due to the point cost situation, it's more cost effective to raise ability scores than saving throws. Despite this inconsistency, most of the rules are set up pretty well). There's a lot of fun to be had, as the game emulates anime very well in the rules (in, for example the removal of the maximum jump distance and the inclusion of energy points, which not only power spells/magic, but also allow characters to draw on personal reserves for temporary stat bonuses). Which leads us to what may be a problem for you in #s 2 and 3.

2) There are a few differences, mostly to make the game run in a more anime style. It's not much, but just enough to make direct conversion a little work. For starters, it uses combat skills (bought as normal skills, at slightly higher skill point costs) to enhance attack and defense and does away with the ability bonus (Strength in most games) to attack. Also, it uses DR rather than the standard D&D armor = AC convention (personally I'd rather use DR). In short, you can convert characters, monsters, etc. with a little effort (clipping off natural and armor AC bonuses and such), but you can't just bring creatures and such over wholesale.

3) Well, BESM d20 has its own effects-based magic/psi system (it has to, it's point-based ), so I can't really say how well the PsiHB or EoM would work, because I'm not sure how you would balance the point costs. The new Advanced Magic book from Guardians of Order (I think it's only pdf, right now) might provide some help with such conversion, but I don't know.

Basically, I think BESM d20 is a pretty solid purchase, and I wish they'd done more with the system, but it's definitely not for everyone, and it's not as friendly to conversion as some prefer. Judging from your 3rd issue with Spycraft, you might want to see what you're getting into. If you want to test drive it, you can check out the Anime SRD (the basic rules, minus art and certain presentation affectations) at Guardians of Order's website here.

Hope this helps.

 

[Herobizkit]

It is important to note that, not only is BESMd20 point-based, it is also SKILLS-based. Anything and everything requires a skill check in this game, whether it's an easy or a tough thing to do. Spells/powers need a roll to activate, and then an attack roll to hit, provided you've also taken the "attack" skill with the power of your choice or suffer the evil -4 to hit; you must also take a different weapon skill for every weapon you plan on using.

If you've ever player or seen/heard of GURPS, BESMd20's the closest ad hoc GURPS to d20 conversion I've seen. A good thing, if you like to play with all aspects of the system you're using. And like the previous poster mentionned, the potential for abuse is HIGH.

All in all, though, you should give BESMd20 a go, although I haven't myself as of yet. Just keep in mind that a lot of the d20-isms aren't present, which IMO is a GOOD thing.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I found it very, very disappointing.

It almost requires the GM to pick and choose subsystems. Not to emulate a particular genre or subgenre, but because the subsystems aren't really compatible with anything outside the book - or, at times, with each other.

To cite one example, a combat-oriented character can get Base Attack Bonus plus Weapon Skill plus attack bonus bought as a power plus stats bought as a power. There might be a generic, stacking Melee Combat skill as well. Compare that to standard d20 (BAB + ability, the former from a class and the latter functionally bought as a power), Mutants & Masterminds (BAB + ability, both functionally bought as powers), or HERO (OCV + skill levels, both functionally bought as powers). 4-5 ways to add to attack bonus instead of 2?

BESM d20 has an effects-based system (special attacks) buried in its exceptions-based rules, but that system is, inevitably, not as developed as an effects-based system running through an entire product.

If you're already converting to a damage save system (by far the most difficult aspect of conversion to Mutants & Masterminds, IMO), why not simply use Mutants & Masterminds? I can't think of a single thing it doesn't handle better than BESM d20 other than being more difficult to convert to and from.

 

[Treebore]

I like BESM d20 and Tri-Stat, but you don't want to play this system without either a bunch of house rules or an "I don't care how powerful everyone is" kind of attitude. Since I only use this for a break from my favorite games/systems I go with the I don't care attitude.

 

[Psion]

My questions regarding BESMD20 are:
1) how does it play?
2) How different is it from standard d20 (Modern or DND)?
3) How hard would it be for me to implement the d20M products mentioned above?

1) Its a bit like a standard d20 game with a slightly less structured chargen. Though it is class driven, it has point-buy sensibilities.
2) It's not as remote as M&M, but that's about the only d20 implementation that I can think of that is more different.
3) Well, since it's point buy and thus flexible, you could probably do it. But it wouldn't be my first choice.

Why don't you want to use d20 modern? If you don't want d20 modern but want something fairly compatible with it, I recommend looking at Grim Tales.

FWIW, I do like BESM d20 (and Centauri Knights d20 and Uresia d20 are pretty good settings for it); I think its great if you want something structured but with a little point buy to it. But it's not the first system I would pick if I wanted to mix it up with supplements for other d20 lines.

 

[argo]

My game group has come to a consensus on BESM d20, "The designers really have a good understanding of anime, their understanding of the d20 mechanics .... not so much."

The game system oozes great anime flavor. It also tries to cover multiple anime genres at once. Combine that with the loose grasp of basic d20 mechanics and calling the ruleset a "toolkit" is being generous. A BESM GM should be ready to modify or drop entire subsystems and make heavy houserule modifications not only to achieve the flavor of anime that he wants in his particular campaign but also to get the game engine running at all. The aformentioned combat skills are a good example. In my group we do not use them nor do we use the block defense subsystem. They just do not scale well with other level-based mechanics.

Basically what I have done with BESM is to take the Attributes chapter and the Defects chapter and use that as an add-on point buy chargen system that I then run on a kernel of basic d20. Chargen is definetly the highlight of BESM.

As for your question about implementing BESM with other d20 products. I don't think I would do that myself. BESM is too far off into its own world for that I think.

All that said I really am fond of the book. Like I said the designers are obviously fans of the genre and that counts for a lot in the final playability department. And if you actually like tinkering with system rules then it can even be a bit of fun to tweak the BESM engine. That and dont forget that you can download the BESM SRD for free on their website so you can always try before your buy.

Later.

 

[Bront]

I might suggest Mutants and Masterminds 2.0 as an alternitive. Or True20 (which is similar). Never delt with BESM D20 though.

 

[Turanil]

I love several 3rd party d20 Modern supplements (i.e, Blood & [X], Psychic's Handbook, and Elements of Magic: ME and want to keep using them. However, despite my love of the d20M supplements mentioned, I really don't want to run d20M either.

This brings me to BESMd20 . A few things that I have heard intrigue me. First, I have heard that it can be done either with or without classes. Second, there are optional rules for implementing the M&M damage save system ( a big plus, because I prefer the damage save system to HP or WP/VP).

BESMd20 is pretty much incompatible with standard d20 rules IMO. However, reading at what you like and want, I would heavily suggest to take a look at True20 (by Green Ronin Publishing). No hit points, but saving throws, magic system is pretty similar to Pychic's Handbook. d20 stuff is usually not too difficult to convert to True20, although it still requires some work.

If you don't want d20 modern but want something fairly compatible with it, I recommend looking at Grim Tales.

Hum, Grim Tales is pretty similar to d20M.

 

[Psion]

Hum, Grim Tales is pretty similar to d20M.

Yeah, that's my whole point. It's fairly easy to plug d20 modern supplements into it. Which was one of the OP's criteria.

IMHO, when someone solicits information, you are not being too helpful if the only answer you have to offer is "your favorite variant". You should at least consider the attributes that the OP was looking for. While I finde True20 and M&M fine games in their own right, they seem a little off target.

Ironically, you even make the point about supplement compatibility yourself in another thread

However, Grim Tales is d20, and thus you can still use most of your d20 books with it, which is not really the case with True20 despite conversion guidelines