Tell me about BESMd20

[Greg K]

Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback. I apologize for not posting back sooner. I had a medical issue come up with one of my eyes and then went to a local con. The eye is still giving me problems, but I'll try to reply to some of the posts a little later in the evening.

 

[Turanil]

It's fairly easy to plug d20 modern supplements into it. Which was one of the OP's criteria. <...> Ironically, you even make the point about supplement compatibility yourself in another thread

Yes, but that's just one of his points, and it seemed to me that he didn't want d20 Modern for specific reasons that are still there with Grim Tales. IMO, as far as his concerns are concerned, Grim Tales is exactly like d20 Modern, and thus probably not what he seeks. Of course I may be wrong, but Grim Tales is but a slight variant of d20 M, rewritten so it may fit with several genres (fantasy, modern sci-fi, etc.), not just modern. Then, GT magic system is quite different from Psychic's Handbook.

 

[Psion]

Yes, but that's just one of his points, and it seemed to me that he didn't want d20 Modern for specific reasons that are still there with Grim Tales.

He never listed his reasons, which is why I specifically asked the question what his objections where in the sentence right before the one that you quoted. Without knowing that, I can't guess whether Grim Tales is "different enough."

 

[Greg K]

Well, here goes a little primer... the game is point-based. You build your characters on a set of Character Points (hereafter described as CP) from the bottom up, in a manner similar to M&M. Classes consist of set "packages" of 10-CP/level modifications (which is why you can go classless if you like... basically each character gets 10 CP per level... with one exception, but there's no reason to go into that here).
QUOTE]

LordEther,
Thanks for the overview. I'll check out the SRD. One of the the things that interested me is that it could be class based or point based. I have one player, who likes classes and several, who prefer point based or at least RM professions over D20 style classes. The ability to do class bassed or point based is what caught my attention as it seemed it could accomadate the different preferences.

 

[Greg K]

If you've ever player or seen/heard of GURPS, BESMd20's the closest ad hoc GURPS to d20 conversion I've seen. A good thing, if you like to play with all aspects of the system you're using. And like the previous poster mentionned, the potential for abuse is HIGH..

Actually, GURPS used to be one of my favorite games. However, Magic psionics and superpowers for GURPS always felt off.

.

All in all, though, you should give BESMd20 a go, although I haven't myself as of yet. Just keep in mind that a lot of the d20-isms aren't present, which IMO is a GOOD thing.

]

removing some d20isms is a good thing imo too.

 

[Greg K]

To cite one example, a combat-oriented character can get Base Attack Bonus plus Weapon Skill plus attack bonus bought as a power plus stats bought as a power. There might be a generic, stacking Melee Combat skill as well. Compare that to standard d20 (BAB + ability, the former from a class and the latter functionally bought as a power), Mutants & Masterminds (BAB + ability, both functionally bought as powers), or HERO (OCV + skill levels, both functionally bought as powers). 4-5 ways to add to attack bonus instead of 2?.

I looked through the SRD quickly. If doing point buy, aren't they just buying BAB via the weapon skill? Anyway, I could use the benchmarks to help set campaign limits. I have done it other games without any complaints from the players.

If you're already converting to a damage save system (by far the most difficult aspect of conversion to Mutants & Masterminds, IMO), why not simply use Mutants & Masterminds? I can't think of a single thing it doesn't handle better than BESM d20 other than being more difficult to convert to and from.

Honestly, I have been thinking about using M&M as a generic point based game, but I do have one player that is intimidated by point buy and thought that I could accomadate my players that prefer point buy and the player that doesn't

 

[buzz]

Actually, GURPS used to be one of my favorite games. However, Magic psionics and superpowers for GURPS always felt off.

GURPS 4e has made great strides to improve these aspects of the system. If you're not tied to using a d20 variant, check it out.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a GURPS fanboy. But, I haven't read BESMd20, either, so this is the only point upon which I can comment.

 

[LordEther]

I looked through the SRD quickly. If doing point buy, aren't they just buying BAB via the weapon skill? Anyway, I could use the benchmarks to help set campaign limits. I have done it other games without any complaints from the players.

In a sense, yes, although weapon skills come out a bit cheaper than BAB (as it should be, as they are applicable only in set circumstances, similar to "Flawed" powers and feats in 1E M&M. What I think MoogleEmpMog was referring to in the statement was the fact that characters can buy attack and defense bonuses through Attributes (though not "powers," necessarily, as was described), such as Attack Combat Mastery or Defence Combat Mastery. I think that perhaps MEmpM and I might not agree on the purpose of such a mechanic.

Now, ACM is essentially similar to just buying BAB. From a design standpoint, I think it's there not only so that we know how much each point of attack bonus is worth, but also to give certain characters in class-based games who may not have a "good" BAB progression the opportunity to boost it, somewhat (remember, CP at character creation can be used for this kind of thing). There really isn't anything wrong with the concept, in my opinion.

I have to respectfully disagree on a couple of MoogleEmpMog's points, here.

To cite one example, a combat-oriented character can get Base Attack Bonus plus Weapon Skill plus attack bonus bought as a power plus stats bought as a power. There might be a generic, stacking Melee Combat skill as well. Compare that to standard d20 (BAB + ability, the former from a class and the latter functionally bought as a power), Mutants & Masterminds (BAB + ability, both functionally bought as powers), or HERO (OCV + skill levels, both functionally bought as powers). 4-5 ways to add to attack bonus instead of 2?

My understanding of the system is that a combat-focused character in a class-based BESM d20 game gets attack bonuses from class (BAB), skills (Melee Attack, Unarmed Attack, etc.), feats (as any d20), and Attributes (Attack Combat Mastery). In a classless BESM d20 game, such as that the OP seemed interested in, he gets attack bonuses from Attribute (Attack Combat Mastery), feats (as any d20), and skills. That's four or three possible attack bonus sources, by my count, which isn't much more than M&M's two (BAB and feats, such as Attack Focus; 1st edition included an ability score bonus to attacks, which would push it to three). There is no generic Melee Combat skill. So, I don't think the BESM attack bonus situation is quite as complicated or convoluted as it may seem based on the above post.

If you're already converting to a damage save system (by far the most difficult aspect of conversion to Mutants & Masterminds, IMO), why not simply use Mutants & Masterminds? I can't think of a single thing it doesn't handle better than BESM d20 other than being more difficult to convert to and from.

I want to start by saying that M&M is, hands down, my favorite d20 incarnation. I love it, and it can do anything I would want. But, really, it isn't any easier to convert other baseline d20 material to or from its system than BESM d20, Arcana Evolved, or any other d20 variant out there. There is the damage dice-to-damage bonus matter to consider (since you've expressed an interest in using the Damage/Toughness save mechanics), as well as the attack/defense issue (By default, not including house rules or those taken from the recently released Mastermind's Manual, M&M2Ed. does not include ability scores into attack or defense bonuses, so, like BESM d20, you'd have to factor that into conversions from other sources) and skill/feat uses and relationships (Green Ronin has done some really wonderful things to make skills more useful, particularly in conjunction with feats like Ritualist, Set-UP, and Taunt, but these things don't always translate well between systems and, more importantly, between genres).

I'm not pushing for BESM d20 or GURPS (I like both) or Grim Tales (I want it, and have wanted it for a long time), as again, I personally like M&M better, but I do want to give these systems their fair shakes. M&M's incredibly good, near perfect in my opinion, but I dont' want to give the impression that it works quite as well as a universal system. I don't think it does.


But check out True20, if you have the time.