Tell me about Blue Rose

[mmadsen]

They said from day one, "This will be apple pie, not quiche." They showed fiction clips on their website that demonstrated that it would be apple pie, not quiche. They answered questions on their forums to confirm that it would be apple pie, not quiche. And yet still people who have neither experience nor interest with apple pie post snarky comments about how it's the worst quiche they've ever tasted.

I think you got those inverted. They said, "This will be quiche, not apple pie." And they delivered quiche. Which real men don't eat.

 

[takyris]

You are correct; the term well-wrought tale is a type of fiction not a judgement of quaility on a work.

The best description of this genre was written by Lin Carter. Essentially, the genre of the well-wrought tale is storytelling for entertainment without concern for being "socially relevant" or "politically correct."

For example: Twentieth century critics of Tolkien predicated their dislike of his work on prevailing 20th century assumptions that social relevance, etc is neccessary for a serious work. Thus the search for allegory and real-world parallels in The Lord of the Rings. To such, Tolkien's writing was nearly incomprehensible and they couldn't believe his assertion that the story is neither topical nor allegorical.

So the whole "he wrote it around WW2 and lifted a whole mess of Wagner's Ring Cycle but with an entirely different moral message" thing doesn't fly with you?

Examples of authors of the well-wrought tale style are Edgar Rice Burroughs, Robert E. Howard, Lin Carter, Sprague de Camp . . . pretty much every author ever listed as inspiration for D&D.

So if you read an interview with, say, Kristen Britain, in which she'd said that she had no intention of being politically correct or socially conscious, but was just trying to write an entertaining story, and her version of an entetaining story just happened to include women and men in roles of power equally, because that was the kind of thing she found entertaining and fun to read... would that make Kristen Britain an author of the well-wrought tale? What if it were an author saying, "Socially conscious? Politically correct? Hey, I just wanted an entertaining story of love and magic and villains getting defeated in the end. Just because the heroes had gay friends and the bad guys belonged to a church that believed in burning people at the stake doesn't mean I was trying to be preachy. I had gay people with the heroes because I've got gay friends, and my heroes are modeled after my friends. I had bad guys belonging to a corrupt church because I was trying to style it after the musketeers stories, and the musketeers stories always have a corrupt cardinal -- it's an intrinsic to a musketeer story as a chandelier and good boots. Really, I was just trying to write some swashbuckling fun."

The problem I see with your definition of the well-wrought tale is that, except for the authors who go on record as saying, "Yes, I was trying to bring gay rights and religious persecution to people's attention through my fiction," the question of what is socially conscious and politically correct is answerable only by the reader. It also opens up the question of whether the well-wrought tale is defined simply by not having to be politically correct, or whether it must be actively politically incorrect in order to qualify. If I read Howard's Conan stories and said, "This is a man who is desperately trying to push his political views of aggressive libertarianism through power fantasies of strong heroes cutting through corrupt or unnecessary laws," that would make his work socially conscious and politically motivated... which would then invalidate it as a well-wrought tale, since its goal is not entertainment but wish-fulfillment of a particular political ideal.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is going to come down to one of those "I like this, and its political message didn't bother me, so I didn't notice it, and therefore it isn't politically conscious, whereas this other thing is, and ew," disagreements. Which is an awfully smug and self-satisfied version of "This is objectively good because it met my subjective requirements for enjoyment."

 

[takyris]

I think you got those inverted. They said, "This will be quiche, not apple pie." And they delivered quiche. Which real men don't eat.

I make darn good quiche. Haven't made it in awhile, because I've got a new baby, and I haven't had three hours sitting around with nothing for me to do. But there ain't nothing unmanly about quiche... unless you use a store-bought crust. If you use a store-bought crust, I've got nothing to say to you.

Same goes for apple pie.

I could make up something about trying to subvert the dominant paradigm by making Blue Rose into the more popular food item instead of making it the quiche, but I honestly did it the way I did it because everyone was talking about how sweet Blue Rose was.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

So you've never heard the expression, "real men don't eat quiche?"

Silly statement, of course, but I'm a bit surprised you didn't know about it. First thing I thought of, too.

 

[takyris]

Oh, I've heard it. I just reject it. Quiche is man's food. Unless, of course, you don't make the crust from scratch. In which case, as noted, I have nothing to say to you.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Oh, I've heard it. I just reject it. Quiche is man's food.

As I said, a silly statement.

Spoiler

See John. See John boost his postcount...Post, John, post!

 

[Emiricol]

So the whole "he wrote it around WW2 and lifted a whole mess of Wagner's Ring Cycle but with an entirely different moral message" thing doesn't fly with you?

No, it doesn't fly with me. Despite the fact that it is impossible to write anything, ever, without it looking like other things (even things the author never read before), the topic of Tolkein being allegorical is very old, very well hashed out. The resemblance to WWII society and events is superficial only.

 

[takyris]

No, it doesn't fly with me. Despite the fact that it is impossible to write anything, ever, without it looking like other things (even things the author never read before), the topic of Tolkein being allegorical is very old, very well hashed out. The resemblance to WWII society and events is superficial only.

Well, I'm glad that you've apparently already had the conversation, although you could have mentioned some of the points, rather than just your conclusion.

Granted, you can't write anything, ever, without it looking like other things. No argument there. But you don't see any interestingl in how Tolkien subverted Wagner's ring cycle? Or perhaps you're one of the "No, despite the overwhelming evidence, I've decided that Tolkien's work had nothing to do with the ring cycle" people -- which is a small number, not counting the people who have no idea what I'm talking about.

But if I accept your argument that one cannot write anything ever without it looking like something else, then why am I not allowed to use that same argument for why Blue Rose looks like a setting designed to be socially conscious? Nothing to see here, no allegorical political statements, just a world with a unicorn and some swords, move along, please.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

It looks like Emericol is saying more that LotR isn't an allegory of WW2 than that it doesn't lift stuff from the Ring Cycle. It'd be very, very difficult to believe the last. Tolkien lifting stuff from mythology is obvious, especially in the Tale of Turin and the Akallabeth.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Tolkien drew from the same mythological and legendary material as Wagner. That is the reason for similarity.