Tell me about Castles and Crusades

[Maliki]

Perhaps some folks find it easier to add 5% to a set of rules than subtract 90% of rules they don't need?

Thats exactly what I ran into, I started to tweak 3.0/3.5 to my taste, taking all the things out of it I didn't like, then I heard about C&C and found they had already taken out everything I didn't like, and left an easy framework to add what I did like.

 

[Breakdaddy]

Thats exactly what I ran into, I started to tweak 3.0/3.5 to my taste, taking all the things out of it I didn't like, then I heard about C&C and found they had already taken out everything I didn't like, and left an easy framework to add what I did like.

This is why these discussions can get a little heated at times. Some people that are absolutely happy with the 3.x rules will always loudly proclaim disdain for "inferior" systems (such as, in their opinion, C&C). Those of us who feel like 3.x is a little too restrictive for our tastes (and dont wish to change a large percentage of the rules to suit our gaming needs) will vehemently defend C&C because of its ability to take large amounts (or any amount for that matter) of house rules without a substantive breakdown of the overall integrity of the rules.

 

[Akrasia]

...As a friend said, "Rules Lite means I have to come up with more rules." ...

Many people say things like this. They are incorrect.

(By this logic, HERO is vastly superior to 3E, because it has far more rules, and thus requires its GMS to 'come up' with fewer ones.)

A rules light system does not require you to 'come up with more rules' if the rules the game does include are general and comprehensive -- i.e. they cover all relevant situations.

A complete rules light system has fewer general rules to apply to all situations, instead of a larger number of specific rules to apply to the same situations.

That said, much like the D&D PHB (any edition), the C&C PHB is not itself a complete system. (Once the CKG & MT books come out, we will be able to make an 'overall judgement'.)

 

[Melkor]

I remember back when the way you roleplayed the character had no mechanical effect of the game, provided you didn't roleplay the default character archetype you were given.

It's the difference between being able to paint racing stripes on one of your cars and actually having a custom-tweaked engine on one of your cars. Either way it's individualized, but I'd only call the latter customized.

I can't quite make out what you are saying here.

I'm trying to figure out if we are in agreement or not....mind rephrasing in layman's terms (none of this Nascar racing crap).

 

[bolie]

Here are some problems with polymorph that stem from monsters not having attributes:

According to p.82 of the C&C PHB:

"The caster retains his mental abilities, prime attribute designations, level and class, hit points, alignment, and base to hit bonus. New strength, dexterity, and constitution scores may affect final attack bonus."

Uh... except monsters don't have strength, dexterity, or constitution scores. So if my Wizard with a base to hit of +2 and a Strength of 9 polymorphs into a Hill Giant, he still only has +2 to hit. But presumably he does 2d8+3 damage, though I'm not sure how that's affected by what weapon he uses as...

"When the polymorph occurs, the caster's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form."

Strangely, the limit is "small as a hummingbird and as large as twice the caster's height." So we need to know how tall monsters are...

Bolie IV

 

[Breakdaddy]

I can't quite make out what you are saying here.

I think I get what he is saying, though I completely disagree. He is saying that by roleplaying changes instead of making copious amounts of incremental modifiers for every possible situation that C&C is somehow lacking and is therefore not a truly customizable system. I dont need scads of +2 and -2 modifiers for every little thing to feel like my PC is different from another PC of the same class. Both ways of playing are valid, but I like mine a lot better. I choose to come up with colorful character backgrounds and develop characters through roleplaying in "real time" during the game. If someone else wants to develop a PC by simply adding little numeric modifiers here and there then that is perfectly fine by me, but it's by no means the way I like to play.

 

[Breakdaddy]

"The caster retains his mental abilities, prime attribute designations, level and class, hit points, alignment, and base to hit bonus. New strength, dexterity, and constitution scores may affect final attack bonus."

Uh... except monsters don't have strength, dexterity, or constitution scores.

You might want to wait for the M&T to come out before you make such bold assertions. I see no evidence at all that these things won't be added to the M&T. About the monster height, same thing, no evidence currently exists that such information will be omitted from the official monster guide. Why make snap judgements in the absence on any legitimate information?

 

[gideon_thorne]

Here are some problems with polymorph that stem from monsters not having attributes:

According to p.82 of the C&C PHB:

"The caster retains his mental abilities, prime attribute designations, level and class, hit points, alignment, and base to hit bonus. New strength, dexterity, and constitution scores may affect final attack bonus."

Uh... except monsters don't have strength, dexterity, or constitution scores. So if my Wizard with a base to hit of +2 and a Strength of 9 polymorphs into a Hill Giant, he still only has +2 to hit. But presumably he does 2d8+3 damage, though I'm not sure how that's affected by what weapon he uses as...

"When the polymorph occurs, the caster's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form."

Strangely, the limit is "small as a hummingbird and as large as twice the caster's height." So we need to know how tall monsters are...

Bolie IV

Hrm...well...if the character has turned into said critter, I'd say the critter now has more defined ability scorses. One could always add the hit die of the monster or the characters level to 'beef' up any neccessary stats.

Or alternatively the person doing the polymorphing could simply roll for added stats, if its really that important.

Just a thought

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I can't quite make out what you are saying here.

I'm trying to figure out if we are in agreement or not....mind rephrasing in layman's terms (none of this Nascar racing crap).

I've never actually seen a Nascar event, so I couldn't tell you if the analogy worked in that light.

Here's another one:

It's the difference between:

a) Playing a fighter who, according to his backstory, used to be the head of the town watch but has no actual investigative or even spotting skills.
b) Playing a high Intelligence fighter with a few rogue levels, the Alertness feat, the Investigator feat, cross-class skill ranks, and eventually the Master Inquisitive PrC from Eberron.

Same rp, but it actually affects the game in the second version.

It's the difference between:

a) Playing a barbarian who, according to his backstory, is equal parts warrior and woodsman and whose ability to cross the trackless wastes of his homeland is unmatched, but who is pigeonholed mechanically into a handful of skills that don't accomplish this goal.
b) Playing a barbarian with scout and/or ranger levels, eventually going into the Horizon Walker PrC.

Same rp, but it actually affects the game in the second version.

It's the difference between working out your character's backstory with the GM so he can incorporate those elements into the campaign, only to discover that your character can't actually do anything his backstory says he can - and having a fighter Sherlock Holmes his way through the depths of a murder mystery.

 

[Psion]

Many people say things like this. They are incorrect.

Oh, good lord. Here comes Akrasia again on the one true way bus.

Let me redefine the statement for you in an irrefutable fashion.

Rules light means I have to come up with more rules in order for ME*to be satisfied with its performance.

A rules light system does not require you to 'come up with more rules' if the rules the game does include are general and comprehensive -- i.e. they cover all relevant situations

... in a fashion that cuts corners that I* am not happy to cut, and requiring inconsistant ad hoc GM calls.

* - And those who share my particular values in gaming.