Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!

[Pbartender]

It's not typical, it's low-end. It isn't a patch on William Fitz Osbern's's castle at Chepstow, let alone a royal castle like Caerphilly, Pembroke, Harlech, Dover, Caernarvon, Beaumaris, Conway, Rhuddlan, Kenilworth, or Flint.

Of course it's low end... It's supposed to be a border fort, not a royal castle or palace. Remember, a great many 'border forts' in those days were just wooden or stone towers with pallisades atop earthen mottes.

In fact, it doesn't look much like the plan of an English castle at all. If I didn't know better I'd say the artist had done all his research in RPG materials.

Ok... That 'Stout Stronghold' is definitely not typical of any historical castle. But for an RP game, the actual 'Castle' isn't that bad.

So let me rephrase what I said previously, eh? There are a great deal of medieval forts that follow this sort of plan... A quick web search will find several British castles of a similar design (www.castles-of-britain.com & www.castles.org are two very good sites). It features a fortified keep with one or more baileys surrounded by curtain walls, towers and several gates houses. It also includes important features contained within most castles to withstand a siege... Multiple wells, storehouses, barracks, a chapel, a postern, and a surrounding ditch which may or may not be filled with water.

Compare, for example, the WotC caste plans with the plans for Conway Castle in Aberconwy-Colwyn built by Edward I in 1283.

 

[NewJeffCT]

keep us posted on what you finally decide on this one - I'm definitely interested, as you can tell by the # of my replies to this thread.

Thanks

 

[Belen]

Angus Wells had a VERY good treatment of a border castle set against a seige in the Wrath of Ashar series. It was wonderful and they had a fair amount of magic too.

Dave

 

[Agback]

Of course it's low end... It's supposed to be a border fort, not a royal castle or palace. Remember, a great many 'border forts' in those days were just wooden or stone towers with pallisades atop earthen mottes.

I don't think so. The timber motte-and-bailey castles were private castles. They were intended to hold off local peasant uprisings and kidnapping raids by the neighbours. And even so most were replaced in stone within a century.

By 'border fort' I understand something that is built on the border to defend a domain against invasion by an army. They have to be larger, stronger, and better garrisoned than some petty lord's semi-fortified home. And are. If this means that only kings, great marcher lords, and organisations like the Hospitallers, Templars, Teutonic Knights, Knight of Alcantara and Knights of Calatreva can afford to build and man them, well, that's what happens.

Look at Chepstow. It was built on the Welsh border in 1071, only five years after the first motte-and-bailey castles in England. That is s border fort. Richmond is another early border fort. Krak des Chevaliers is a border fort. Caerphilly is a border fort.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Since it is pretty impossible to keep a small force from getting into a castle at any magic level in a DnD driven universe, I would assume that a major border fort built purely for important military reasons would incorporate a few design themes. Just simple measures for internal security that most medieval border fortresses would not have had to concern themselves.

1.) Loads of compartimentalization. Rather than a single great or mess hall I would expect that there would be many small barracks, hospital, and mess halls with many small and very secure supply rooms. Whatever you need to be able to lock down sections of the fortress for fairly lengthy periods of times. At the same time you would design to prevent really crucial chokepoints, you want a small team gaining access to the one important room and shutting everything down.

2.) Really sophisticated, robust, and easily accessed alarm and sentry systems. Not one great bell but tens of lesser bells scattered throughout the fortress and sentries inside as well as on the walls. Plenty of internal secure doors and guardhouses would act to give everyone a safe place of retreat at all times. A system of speaking tubes or codes with the bells would then provide communication between the various safe points.

3.) Very tight control of information would be the norm. No signs would be posted anywhere. Things would be kept very uniform, and guests would be assigned guides rather than give directions. In fact were I building a DnD fortress I would incorporate lots of movable semi-structural elements. Not only would this make corporeal spies ineffective, but if you keep changing things to make them unfamiliar you set a significantly higher bar for scrying and teleporting opponents.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Oh yes, Castles aren't invariably doomed against engineers. You just have to have very good engineers of your own.

Then it all comes down to who ends up with better logistics and morale.

 

[Pbartender]

I don't think so. The timber motte-and-bailey castles were private castles. They were intended to hold off local peasant uprisings and kidnapping raids by the neighbours. And even so most were replaced in stone within a century.

By 'border fort' I understand something that is built on the border to defend a domain against invasion by an army. They have to be larger, stronger, and better garrisoned than some petty lord's semi-fortified home. And are. If this means that only kings, great marcher lords, and organisations like the Hospitallers, Templars, Teutonic Knights, Knight of Alcantara and Knights of Calatreva can afford to build and man them, well, that's what happens.

Alright... I think I was just thinking of something different. I think 'fort' was misleading me. It seems to have a smaller connotation than 'fortress' or 'castle'. That, and I was thinking of something more along the lines of 'frontier' forts, instead of 'border' forts. As you said above, a string of small forts built by petty lords to prevent small raids. I wasn't thinking of large castles governed by important nobility to fend off major invasions.

As for the WotC castle plans, I still think it's got maost all the right parts in most all the right places. But size-wise, though, your right.... It probably sits about halfway between the petty Lords' keeps, and the Royalties' castles. Not quite large enough for a major border fort, but certainly too big for your run-of-the-mill landlord.

Anyway...

If you want magically secure rooms, Buttercup, make certain you line them with sheets of lead. That'll keep out most divinations and many transport spells.

 

[Crass]

Since it is pretty impossible to keep a small force from getting into a castle at any magic level in a DnD driven universe, I would assume that a major border fort built purely for important military reasons would incorporate a few design themes. Just simple measures for internal security that most medieval border fortresses would not have had to concern themselves.

1.) Loads of compartimentalization. Rather than a single great or mess hall I would expect that there would be many small barracks, hospital, and mess halls with many small and very secure supply rooms. Whatever you need to be able to lock down sections of the fortress for fairly lengthy periods of times. At the same time you would design to prevent really crucial chokepoints, you want a small team gaining access to the one important room and shutting everything down.

2.) Really sophisticated, robust, and easily accessed alarm and sentry systems. Not one great bell but tens of lesser bells scattered throughout the fortress and sentries inside as well as on the walls. Plenty of internal secure doors and guardhouses would act to give everyone a safe place of retreat at all times. A system of speaking tubes or codes with the bells would then provide communication between the various safe points.

3.) Very tight control of information would be the norm. No signs would be posted anywhere. Things would be kept very uniform, and guests would be assigned guides rather than give directions. In fact were I building a DnD fortress I would incorporate lots of movable semi-structural elements. Not only would this make corporeal spies ineffective, but if you keep changing things to make them unfamiliar you set a significantly higher bar for scrying and teleporting opponents.

And perhaps slightly OT, bright illumination inside to make skulking more difficult. Teleportation works differently than a Myrddraal's ability to "jump" between shadows, for the Wheel of Time fans out there, but why not make it harder for the "bad guys"? I'd assume there wouldn't be too many shadowdancers in the elves' alliance.

 

[Hand of Evil]

You also have to think about the attackers. Sure you can have sappers but that was an Europe thing, for many years foes just stormed the walls and even laying siege took some time to catch on.

In a fantasy game you still have cost and while wizards, and flying items are nice you have the unkeep cost of keeping them around in peace time. After a few years of nothing happening, they would be forgot about or someone would say we don't need that. It comes back to numbers and skills.

 

[Kodam]

Off the ground

In the D&D-Cosmos there are "improved engineers": Xorn, Earth Elementals, and so on. You have got to secure the very ground against that kind of borrowing dangers...
But I don't have the great Idea how to achieve this. A large area wall of force? Or a plate of steel laid in the floor? Something like this...