Tell me about Midnight

[BlackMoria]

It one of those settings in which you either love it or hate it.

Our group didn't like it. There is nothing wrong with the setting mechanicially but one of the players summed up how all of us felt when he said he felt that all the effort and suffering by the party is basically for naught since the best we can do basically amounts to buying a little time for the world and only inconviencing the BBEG. And the campaigns basically amount to the same thing - do what you can to hold of the overwhelming tide of darkness as long as possible. Good for one campaign (which our group did) but for our group, we like a variety of campaign favors and 'fighting the good fight against unbeatable darkness' gets old real fast. YMMV.

Our group basically wants to feel that their actions make a real lasting difference and can shape the world to be a better place. Which is why they loved the Age of Worms because they got to take down Kyuss.

 

[Kishin]

It one of those settings in which you either love it or hate it.

Our group didn't like it. There is nothing wrong with the setting mechanicially but one of the players summed up how all of us felt when he said he felt that all the effort and suffering by the party is basically for naught since the best we can do basically amounts to buying a little time for the world and only inconviencing the BBEG. And the campaigns basically amount to the same thing - do what you can to hold of the overwhelming tide of darkness as long as possible. Good for one campaign (which our group did) but for our group, we like a variety of campaign favors and 'fighting the good fight against unbeatable darkness' gets old real fast. YMMV.

Our group basically wants to feel that their actions make a real lasting difference and can shape the world to be a better place. Which is why they loved the Age of Worms because they got to take down Kyuss.

I disagree with the idea that the PC's actions in Midnight cannot make a real lasting difference. Too many people overlook the fact that while Midnight is meant to be grim, gritty and dark, it is also intended to be -epic-. The heroes in Midnight are HEROES. They're doing an amazing thing just by taking a stand against Izrador in the first place, and it only gets more impressive from there. I think the dissatisfaction here is that people get so caught up in reinforcing the hopelessness of the situation and the omnipresence of the Shadow that they forget to place the proper emphasis on the deeds of the PCs, thereby making it into a 'Why bother?" scenario.

That said, I think its definitely the best written 3rd party setting, and is a top contender in my mind for the best setting in recent memory. Its incredibly well written, and the atmosphere is like nothing else. It probably does require a well versed and talented DM to make it really work, though, as I've seen it swing to extremes on occasion. (Ie, total hopelessness, or 'just another D&D setting'). I still highly recommend it as a very different and potentially very enjoyable experience.

 

[hbarsquared]

Midnight is indeed a bleak, hopeless, and grim world in which characters can only stave off the darkness for a short amount of time. It takes a unique DM and a unique group to truly pull of what the setting itself is capable of.

The key, as others have touched on, is the balance between having your characters accomplish goals while maintaining the theme of hopelessness.

The Dark God cannot be toppled, and the orcs have already overrun the continent. To that extent, the setting is hopeless, and should remain so. However, the characters can make a lasting difference in smaller ways. Protect and hide an entire village, for instance (a la John Christopher's The White Mountains). Save kidnapped victims or important people from the clutches of Izrador. Discover a lost dwarven holdfast with powerful artifacts to aid in the fight.

The balance lies in realizing that the PCs can have a lasting effect: their efforts should not be defeated and overwhelmed at every turn. They make smaller, successful, mostly permanent changes that they can be proud of.

 

[Soloman Kane]

I agree with Jeremy_dnd, having a gm that allows you to set some achievable goals while keeping to the core of the setting is vitally important. I've been playing in the midnight setting since it came out and have run through about a half a dozen different campaigns. I was burned out on dnd/D20 until I started in the setting. As was said before, your characters aren't just run of the mill adventurers, they are truly heroes standing against incredible/hopeless odds. The 1st edition core book should be pretty cheap on ebay if you want to read more about the setting/rules without making a large investment.

Soloman Kane

 

[Driddle]

The lack of divine magic was quite a hinderance in terms of the number of encounters/monsters we could face in a given day. As Gundark observed this is quite the departure from the expected D&D hack and slash experience. However, we knew this was the case when we signed up so it wasn't much of a shock.

In fact, magic became much more of a liability in general. I was playing a dwarven defender in a party with two casters. Everytime they cast a spell, I knew that either they would fall into some crazy coma/trance and I'd have to knock them out, or the shadow's forces would soon be upon us, or both.

...

I did really like the heroic paths: The combination of feats and paths made for interesting flavor and crunch for all the characters.

I also agree with what Particle_Man said. It did feel like we would never win but only delay losing; I would get genuinely depressed during some of the sessions. It was a hopeless battle we were fighting in a bleak world with little hope for survival let alone glory. Grim and Gritty doesn't begin to cover it. That said, it did elicit a powerful response from me and my group. Maybe that's something you and your group are interested in.

I'll affirm these points as well. I loved the campaign world precisely because it veered away from the standard gaming-console HnS ("Hack 'n' Slash") attitude most of us grow fat on. Limited magic, for example, requires more cautious solutions -- no, you don't get to dash from monster fight scene to monster fight scene; and yes, there's a big risk every time you cast a spell.

I love the heroic paths. Wish they were a part of standard v3.5. They help alleviate the need for huge libraries of "Complete This-and-That" books filled with specialty classes.

And there's something to be said for operating in a world tottering on the edge of doom. You definitely feel that you might as well give it everything you've got, no matter what the task at hand is. Do it with panache. Style. A blaze of glory. ... Because there might not be a tomorrow.

(By the way, we played with a slight modification: The overwhelming majority of humans in Midnight were evil. There was a distinct elite racist attitude at play throughout; the GM strongly advised against any of us playing a human character.)

 

[Driddle]

A Second Thought...

Ya know, it might be a lot of fun to run a second- or third-generation party in this world.

Consider: The first gaming group does what it can, and meets a tragic albeit-heroic ending. End of campaign, right? ... Not quite. Years later, another group of fledgling heroes stumble across a small-but-growing pocket of resistance and hope engendered by the first group. Their names and memories are honored (in the shadows) for what they accomplished, small though it seemed at the time. It gives them impetus to keep fighting the good fight.

How cool, to discover your PC's heroic actions motivated hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

(Of course this would require the GM to actually move the campaign world ahead through the intervening years...)

 

[Odhanan]

I never really "got" Midnight.

I think it's a nice enough setting, but I don't like its alterations to D&D's rules. I've never been an advocate of the weakening of magic in D&D, and the heroic paths are somewhat "blah" for me, sort of like saying "hey, we're screwing with D&D's rules, taking off all the spells we think are spoiling the fun for you dear GM, but look, we're putting some feats and spell-like abilities so your players won't rebel too much." *shrug*

I've never been convinced that "challenging the PCs" meant pitting them against an absolutely overwhelming opposition and making clear from the get-go they'll lose in any case. I'm sure some DMs have fun running it. I'm sure some players do too, even if it seems masochistic to me.

For a one shot, I can imagine playing a game in Midnight. For a campaign/on the long run, I just can't imagine having fun. I played Vampire The Masquerade for years and years and I guess it plays a part in my opinion too: I'm just fed up with hopelessness in RPGs, to tell you the truth.

 

[SWBaxter]

THREADJACK!!! I'm thinking of picking up a 3.0 Midnight at my LGS (the 3.5 one is silly expensive) and using the classes/magic/heroic paths in my homebrew. Is the 3.0 heroic paths much different from the 3.5 version? If yes, how much? and how so?

I haven't read 2e Midnight (the 3.5 version), but in the original I found that the heroic paths weren't that well balanced - some were far better than others. So if they've changed, I'd imagine it'd be to bring them into balance. Magic in the original was also quite powerful - largely because non-spellcasters are unlikely to have any magical gear to counter it - despite the drawbacks.

Based on the original release, I'd pick up Midnight for the setting, but be prepared to chuck many of the mechanics out the door, there's now some good replacements in various D&D/d20 products. Dunno if 2e is any stronger mechanically.

Edit - oh yeah, so long as the invincible bad guy goes, there's plenty of room for DMs to write in their own "fall of Izrador" conditions. As a god he's not a threat you can expect to just beat down and take his stuff, but there's any number of ways a campaign could be structured so he ultimately falls. If you continue the Tolkien feel, for example, "all" you have to do is get the PCs to do the same thing Earendil did to bring down Melkor.

 

[Imruphel]

I've always wanted a to run an epic Midnight campaign that was much like the original Star Wars trilogy but without ewoks, combined with the end of the Elric series, before seguing into Dawnforge.

Essentially, that the party eventually find an artefact along the lines of the horn of change from the Elric series; the horn is sounded and one world ends and another begins. The next world is the Dawnforge world with the PCs from the Midnight campaign as some of that world's immortals.

Of course, I know many won't like the sound of that but my players did. Of course, being absorbed by the Singapore Collective rather killed the idea...!

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Don't have Midnight tho here's a suggestion:

Long ago, in a distant land, I, Aku, shapeshifting master of darkness, unleashed an unspeakable evil. But a foolish samurai warrior weilding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow could be struck, I tore open a portal in time and sent him to the future where my evil is law. Now the fool seeks to return to the past and undo the future that is Aku!

So yes, it can be grim but to give the PCs some idea of hope, there's a way they can go back to the beginning and prevent the BBEG from winning and starting everything in the first place. Unfortunately that might get old too since Jack always got screwed with a 'deus ex machina'.