Tell me about retraining

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't have the PHB2, so forgive the dumb questions, but how organic and natural is retraining made out to be? Is there a plausible in-game reason given for all of it? Does it require something epic to accomplish?

I'm in the funny position of trying to transform a gnome illusionist/bard/gnome paragon (with a familiar) into ... something in 4E. I'm guessing he'll be a MM1 gnome wizard initially, but when illusionists finally come out, I'll want to switch over using the new retraining rules.

Assuming the 4E rules are similar to the PHB2 ones, is this going to be something pretty easy to do by the RAW, or will it be a complete pain (and require basically throwing myself at my DM's feet and weeping like a little girl)?

 

[Voss]

It comes across (IMO) as lame, reaching and sad. It mostly seems to involve stepping to a magic box/location/site and undergoing a Magical Alteration Process to correct bad character planning.

Very meta and gamist in the worst sense of the terms.

And yes, just begging the DM to let you change your character is functionally the same thing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Bleah, I was hoping for something more.

We're going with a cosmological change, so I guess I'll just have Baeril go back to his magical college between schools and reemerge as an illusionist once the school (Ignes School of Illusion at Redhurst Academy, go Rams!) has adjusted.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Assuming the 4E rules are similar to the PHB2 ones, is this going to be something pretty easy to do by the RAW, or will it be a complete pain (and require basically throwing myself at my DM's feet and weeping like a little girl)?

Assuming the rules are similar, switching race or class is rather difficult and generally requires going on a long quest to find your new self. I don't remember the exact rules, but if I remember correctly, it's pretty much "go on a quest as long as your DM thinks it should be and then at the end, remake everything about your character".

 

[MerricB]

The retraining rules allow you to change one feat, group of skill points, class feature, spell or similar every time you gain a level. There's nothing special about accomplishing it: when you gain a level, you lose "Toughness" and you gain "Improved Toughness". The proviso is that it must have been a legal choice when you gained the feat.

The rebuilding rules allow you to change ability scores, class levels, templates or race, and require the PC to undertake a significant quest.

Cheers!

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm in the funny position of trying to transform a gnome illusionist/bard/gnome paragon (with a familiar) into ... something in 4E. I'm guessing he'll be a MM1 gnome wizard initially, ...

You might want to consider some Warlordism to reflect the leadership/group buffing nature of the Bardish aspects of your character.

I know nothing about the retraining or rebuilding rules, nor do I care to. Usually I just say to my DM "This character sucks, and I made some really stupid choices. Here's my new build." I mean, it's a game, if you're not having fun what's the point of showing up on game day? I can't imagine why you'd need rules for this, as long as the new build is "legal" and you're honestly trying to make the character "more" the character, rather than "tuning" him to the particular adventure you're on.

 

[delericho]

I'm not a fan of this being codified in general. It strikes me that minor changes (a feat here, a skill there...) should just be allowed by the DM to allow the player to play the character he actually wants.

For the major changes (different race, different class...) I think the best way to proceed is as follows: the character is retired, and a replacement brought in.

 

[Simon Marks]

Retraining, for me, is an issue that is badly dealt with by many RPGs. D&D is particularly bad at it.

Here, for me, is the issue in a nutshell.

In a 'low-mid' level game, you want to bring in a new character - a blacksmith who picks up the sword to defend his village.

Either, you can play him as an Expert 5/Fighter 1 or you can bring him in as a pure fighter.

As a pure fighter, you simply don't have the skills required to have ever been a good Blacksmith and the meta-game elements don't work (where you always secretly a fighter?)

As a Expert/Figher multiclass - especially with adventure useless skills - you are always going to be a lot worse than anyone else of your level.

Retraining should deal with this.

 

[WhatGravitas]

The rebuilding rules allow you to change ability scores, class levels, templates or race, and require the PC to undertake a significant quest.

Which can be fun to wacky. Racial change is a bit too much for me to grok (usually), but in the following game, a character transforms his artificer into a swordsage - by undertaking a final adventure as artificer after living in a monastery for two years.

But generally, the major retraining rules are rather like "ask your DM if you can do a quest to keep character continuity".

However, the problem is perhaps that the PHBII is very optional in feel, so perhaps the inclusion in 4E will make DMs aware of that possibility and make them less adverse to it, mainly because it's core.

But I don't really think it'll become something else than DM fiat, unless they "hardcode" it into the rules - which is possible: Bo9S and 3.5E Sorcerers offer "retraining-light", and AE has offered feat retraining at 10th and 20th since '04.

Taking a clue from it, they may include such breakpoints into character progression (perhaps 5th, 10th, 15th..., i.e. at "tier"-change and mid-"tier") - but wholesale class changes? I cannot see it.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Simm]

Retraining, for me, is an issue that is badly dealt with by many RPGs. D&D is particularly bad at it.

Here, for me, is the issue in a nutshell.

In a 'low-mid' level game, you want to bring in a new character - a blacksmith who picks up the sword to defend his village.

Either, you can play him as an Expert 5/Fighter 1 or you can bring him in as a pure fighter.

As a pure fighter, you simply don't have the skills required to have ever been a good Blacksmith and the meta-game elements don't work (where you always secretly a fighter?)

As a Expert/Figher multiclass - especially with adventure useless skills - you are always going to be a lot worse than anyone else of your level.

Retraining should deal with this.

I've actually thought about this problem and found a solution within the D&D rules. My solution is to modify the Creeping Shadow rules from tome of magic. The rule was designed for wizards who wanted to become shadowcasters, basically it allowed a wizard x/shadowcaster y upon gaining a new level to lose an level of wizard for an additional level of shadowcaster, becoming a wizard x-1/shadowcaster y+2.