Tell me about this free GAMEMASTERING PDF, please

[KB9JMQ]

We're coming up on close to 150 downloads today-- but only one person has left any feedback on RPGnow.

Sorry, I just havent got to really look at it yet. Will do so when I get home though.

 

[Pinotage]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but I assume this follows the same rules for rounding down? So if you end up with a number of 15.9, it rounds down to 15?

Is it just me and my math or does it seem to inflate encounters at higher levels. Take 6 15th level PCs, for example. They should be able to face a CR 16 encounter while expending 25% of their resources. According to the power calculation, the creature they should face for a moderate encounter should have a power/4 of the party's total power.

Now the party's total power is (15)^2 x6 = 225x6=1350. The creature they face should have a power of 1350/4 = 337.4 or a CR of 18. That's 2 CR's higher than what the DMG suggests. I'm just wondering if I'm doing it right or if that is more balanced than the DMG guidelines. It gets worse as levels go higher. A party of 6 18th level PCs for a moderate encounter should face a CR 22 creature.

Thanks

Pinotage

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but I assume this follows the same rules for rounding down? So if you end up with a number of 15.9, it rounds down to 15?

You'll have to be more specific-- you mean the XP awards? I always round those down.

Is it just me and my math or does it seem to inflate encounters at higher levels. . . That's 2 CR's higher than what the DMG suggests. I'm just wondering if I'm doing it right or if that is more balanced than the DMG guidelines.

GT uses a different rating for EL than the DMG.

You need to understand a couple of things about the way the DMG uses EL.

In the DMG, EL X means, "A moderate encounter for exactly 4 characters of exactly X level."

So when EL = Party Level, that means it's a moderate encounter-- which means, by definition, the party power is 4 times as strong as the encounter (because there are four PCs vs. one creature of CR X).

In the DMG, notice there's no reference for the PC side of the equation. What if there are more than four PCs? What if they have different levels? Obviously, that affects EL, but you have no reference point to figure out exactly HOW it changes things. This was one of the driving forces behind this design change-- the ability to use mixed groups of both PCs and their opposition and figure out their EL relative to each other.

In GT you need to know the "EL" of both the party and the opposition. From there you can calculate the difficulty of the encounter.

This information is covered in the PDF portion of the download.

Wulf

 

[Pinotage]

You'll have to be more specific-- you mean the XP awards? I always round those down.

No, just simple calculations of CR from a given power rating.

The DMG implies that if you double the number of opponents, you increase the EL by 2. I'm using the DMG EL for this discussion. So if you double the number of members in a party, the EL goes up by two. 4 PCs of 15th level can face a 25% encounter as a CR15 creature or EL15 creatures, but 8 PCs by the DMG can face a CR17 creature or EL17 encounter.

The GT does things very differently to that. 4 15th level PCs can face a CR15 encounter or EL 15 creatures, but 8 level 15 PCs suddenly implies they can face a CR 21 creature or EL21 encounter which is still a quarter of their power. That's vastly different and I was curious as to why.

Pinotage

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No, just simple calculations of CR from a given power rating.

Power rating is calculated from CR, not vice versa. Since you're squaring CR to find power, there shouldn't be any fractions, ever.

The DMG implies that if you double the number of opponents, you increase the EL by 2. I'm using the DMG EL for this discussion. So if you double the number of members in a party, the EL goes up by two. 4 PCs of 15th level can face a 25% encounter as a CR15 creature or EL15 creatures, but 8 PCs by the DMG can face a CR17 creature or EL17 encounter.

Agreed.

The GT does things very differently to that. 4 15th level PCs can face a CR15 encounter or EL 15 creatures, but 8 level 15 PCs suddenly implies they can face a CR 21 creature or EL21 encounter which is still a quarter of their power. That's vastly different and I was curious as to why.

I suspect it's because EL does not transfer 1:1 from the DMG system to the GT system. That is to say, EL 15 (DMG) <> EL 15 (GT).

But let's check your numbers and see. All of the following are GT numbers.

Four 15th level PCs = EL 21.

This means that for them, a CR15 creature (EL17) is indeed a moderate encounter. (A moderate encounter will be EL -4, as shown on Table 1 in the PDF.)

Eight 15th level PCs = EL 23 (notice, you doubled the number of party members, and EL increased by 2). In order to have a moderate encounter for this party, you would want EL 19 (EL -4). Two CR15 creatures = EL 19.

Exact same ratio.

To put it another way:

Th4 15th level PCs can face a CR15 encounter or EL 15 creatures,

...but in GT, a CR15 encounter is EL17...

but 8 level 15 PCs suddenly implies they can face a CR 21 creature or EL21 encounter

...but in GT, a CR21 creature is EL19.

Your question is not meant to quibble the numbers or terminology: I see your point.

Yes, they can face this creature.

It's vastly different because it's "true." A party of eight 15th level characters should have only "moderate" difficulty with a CR21 creature.

I believe it was this discrepancy between the way the DMG predicted EL outcomes at high CRs and what he was actually seeing in his game that led Upper_Krust to revisit the system in the first place.


Wulf

 

[devilish]

Problems?

Not meaning to hijack - but I was looking at the prior emails and thought I
might as well ask.

Was there a revision to the Gamemastering PDF? My numbers don't compute!

Take a party levels of 1 4th, and 3 5th level characters.
Power : 91.
Party's EL = 14

1 Monster : CR 12
Monster Power: 144
Monster EL: 15 (round down)

When I put these in the spreadsheet, I get IMPOSSIBLE encounter,
but compared to the tables : It's a Party+1 EL which makes it between VERY
DIFFICULT and PYRRHIC, not near IMPOSSIBLE.

But then I do the % Survival [ 1-( chi /( rho *2)) ] and come up with 20% survival,
which would make it between PYRRHIC and IMPOSSIBLE.

So which one is right?

Thanks,
-D

 

[KB9JMQ]

BTW I just wanted to say I finally left some feedback.
That XL sheet rocks. Now my groups PC's wont just breeze thru every ecounter
just because I couldn't figure out how to get the correct EL needed.
Course my party might not like you now

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Not meaning to hijack - but I was looking at the prior emails and thought I
might as well ask.

Was there a revision to the Gamemastering PDF? My numbers don't compute!

Take a party levels of 1 4th, and 3 5th level characters.
Power : 91.
Party's EL = 14

1 Monster : CR 12
Monster Power: 144
Monster EL: 15 (round down)

When I put these in the spreadsheet, I get IMPOSSIBLE encounter,
but compared to the tables : It's a Party+1 EL which makes it between VERY
DIFFICULT and PYRRHIC, not near IMPOSSIBLE.

But then I do the % Survival [ 1-( chi /( rho *2)) ] and come up with 20% survival,
which would make it between PYRRHIC and IMPOSSIBLE.

So which one is right?

Thanks,
-D

It looks like a conjunction caused by LOTS of rounding offs in different places and looking at lots of "estimates" provided by various numbers used in various ways:

1) It's rounding off in the power to EL equation on both sides (party and opponent)

2) It's really rounding off when it takes the Chi/Rho survival ratio (in your example 20.88%) and then tries to stick a text label on it (Moderate, Difficult, etc.)

Looking just at power, the CR12 creature is not quite twice the party's power (144 vs. 91). So it's rounding off what is actually closer to EL +2.

The most accurate computation would be Chi/Rho-- a straight ratio, no logarithms, nothing rounded off. You should feel the most confident in that 20.88% survival estimate.


Wulf

 

[Pinotage]

I believe it was this discrepancy between the way the DMG predicted EL outcomes at high CRs and what he was actually seeing in his game that led Upper_Krust to revisit the system in the first place. Wulf

Thanks for the reply. I think it makes sense!

One last point as I'm still slightly confused.

8 15th Level PCs
Power Rating: 1800

Suitable Encounter P/4 = 1800/4= 450
Encounter with a Power Rating of 450 = Roughly one CR 21 creature (Power = 441)

I think my confusion is this - the way it looks (completely ignoring EL now) is that the party of 8 15th level PCs can face a CR 21 creature. You said they should be able to.

Am I being obtuse? I'm not talking EL here, just CR. The power of a CR 21 creature is 441. That's equal to roughly a quarter of the power of 8 15th level PCs and hence is a moderate encounter. In other words, 8 15th level PCs should find a Tarrasque a 'Moderate Encounter' and expend 25% of their resources. Is that the case?

Pinotage

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Am I being obtuse? I'm not talking EL here, just CR. The power of a CR 21 creature is 441. That's equal to roughly a quarter of the power of 8 15th level PCs and hence is a moderate encounter. In other words, 8 15th level PCs should find a Tarrasque a 'Moderate Encounter' and expend 25% of their resources. Is that the case?

That's the case, but I say that with a caveat:

I would want to run the Tarrasque through the Creature Creator to see if its CR was actually 21.

WOTC has a bad habit of "under-reporting" the CR of creatures that they think should seem "tough." (Dragons are the most notable example.)

With the Tarrasque, there's also the small matter that its major vulnerability is "hard coded" to a set level. If the PCs don't have wish or miracle specifically, that's a problem. The problem with that kind of "hard coding" means that no amount of opponents could defeat the tarrasque if they are not prepped with either of those spells.

So to answer your question:

Can eight 15th level PCs handle a CR21 creature? YES.

Can eight 15th level PCs necessarily handle a specific CR21 creature you have in mind? Not necessarily.

But that's true of any group of PCs at any CR. Sometimes you're not equipped to deal with the critter, no matter what its CR says.

(Personally, I believe a 15th level wizard, alone and with foreknowledge of what he's facing, would have little trouble "nullifying" the Tarrasque. It doesn't fly, after all. Of course, most of my own strategies would involve being swallowed whole first... )


Wulf