Tell Me About Your Experiences With High Level 5E

[CapnZapp]

Not that.

The game knows exactly how much punishment high level parties can dish and take, and the challenge level has been set at default for casual players without magic items, feats, multi classing or maximizing DPR either individually or as a group.

It is trivially easy for a DM to adjust the difficulty level upwards if desired to match the play style of her group.

With the availability of resurrection magic, a DM need not worry about pushing to hard. Even a TPK can be undone by the types of allies the party can have by Tier IV (at a cost of course).

The game falls comically short of even starting to admit that once you actually use the rules in the PHB, everything falls apart at high level.

Fixing this is possible, but only if you are experienced, and have set aside enough prep time ahead of play. Calling the effort involved "trivial" is detached from reality.

The way you claim to speak for everybody utterly trivializing death is not only not appreciated, it also speaks volumes itself.

 

[Sadras]

Fixing this is possible, but only if you are experienced, and have set aside enough prep time ahead of play. Calling the effort involved "trivial" is detached from reality.

In short, I trust any reader with common sense to completely disregard your blatant shilling.[/QUOTE]

Two things.
1. Your's and @OB1's definition of trivial obviously clashes which is perhaps causing some of the disagreement.
It is true some of us have more time for prep than others and therefore what is trivial for one is not necessarily for another.
Also if I recall correctly, OB1 is a game's designer by trade or at least part time, so making fixes would perhaps be faster for him/her than your casual DM.

2. You refer to experienced DM's having the capabilities to fix the shortcomings of high level gaming. That is certainly true, and I'm willing to take a stab in the dark that most Enworlders are experienced to some degree just because we have invested additional time into our hobby by being on this forum, certainly more so than your casual DM so...and despite the arguments and circular debates we constantly find ourselves in, we are all learning from each other here.
So in a room full of peers, yes we are all experienced enough to fix the issues that creep up on us or that exist within the game.

 

[Jester David]

2. You refer to experienced DM's having the capabilities to fix the shortcomings of high level gaming. That is certainly true, and I'm willing to take a stab in the dark that most Enworlders are experienced to some degree just because we have invested additional time into our hobby by being on this forum, certainly more so than your casual DM so...and despite the arguments and circular debates we constantly find ourselves in, we are all learning from each other here.
So in a room full of peers, yes we are all experienced enough to fix the issues that creep up on us or that exist within the game.

I'd also argue any DM who has played a campaign from 1-20 *should* be somewhat experienced. Playing every other week, that might take a good two years. That sounds pretty experienced to me...

 

[robus]

I'd also argue any DM who has played a campaign from 1-20 *should* be somewhat experienced. Playing every other week, that might take a good two years. That sounds pretty experienced to me...

That describes me - I think it's the experience of both running the game for that long and getting familiar with the antics of a particular group. Knowing what their typical response to a big challenge is (gung-ho, cautious, whatever) really helps a DM choose the right mix. It's not like the boosts at each higher level massively change - it's incremental, but the damage increments do seem (at least for my table) to be outpacing the monsters ability to resist. So the biggest improvement I've found for high-level play is maxing the HP of the high level monsters. It wasn't like they couldn't hit, they just weren't lasting long enough to make an impression!

 

[the Jester]

Last night saw the first 5e pc of my campaign reach 20th level.

I run a hardcore sandbox, with mixed level groups that overlap with each other and interact from time to time. My playstyle is largely based around the notion that pcs can choose their risk and reward level- if a party of level 16-20 goes into a bandit stronghold, they're still fighting the same bandits and earning the same xp and treasure as would a first level party.

With that out of the way, I have found that high level 5e works great, maintains its speed of play, and doesn't really bog down (AFAICT). Last night saw the pcs finish up Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, fighting Imix (CR 19), the Second (a badass custom legendary aboleth, CR 18), a water elemental, and six skum (CR 2) at once, with Imix coming at them from behind while the others attacked from the front.

The fight took probably an hour and a half. Compare to some high level 3e or 4e play, where a single round might take that long. Also, it took me about 20 minutes to custom build my epic aboleth. In 3e, that would have been several hours.

 

[Zardnaar]

The game falls comically short of even starting to admit that once you actually use the rules in the PHB, everything falls apart at high level.

Fixing this is possible, but only if you are experienced, and have set aside enough prep time ahead of play. Calling the effort involved "trivial" is detached from reality.

The way you claim to speak for everybody utterly trivializing death is not only not appreciated, it also speaks volumes itself.

No D&D does that well at high level, 4E grinds to a creeping halt (assuming it did not drive you off to play Pathfinder), 5E more or less does it the best with some competition from BECMI and 2E. High level in 1E was level 10.

 

[Aguirre Melchiors]

i dont feel 4E grind
D&D characters deal a lot of damage.
My group is lvl 7 - a monster with 130hp goes down in 2 rounds

 

[Greg Benage]

That describes me - I think it's the experience of both running the game for that long and getting familiar with the antics of a particular group. Knowing what their typical response to a big challenge is (gung-ho, cautious, whatever) really helps a DM choose the right mix.

This, which is also why it's tough for the publisher to do all the work for the DM. The higher the level, the more a group's capabilities will depend on the specific players and PCs.

I ran a campaign from 3 to 20, and played in two campaigns that went to Tier 4. My opinion is that 5e works really well at high level, both as a player and a DM.

In terms of combat, the only thing I'd emphasize that hasn't been mentioned in the thread is lair design. Cool and challenging lair effects are a blast and reasonably freeform and easy to create. More than anything else, I found, the right environment and lair effects really evoke the "epic" feel of combat at this level.

And, of course, this whole thread has focused on combat. This pillar will remain fun and important in most D&D games, but the opportunities and stakes for the other pillars are enhanced at high level as well.

 

[lkj]

Currently running a campaign where the PCs are 19th level. Started at 1.

It has been extremely fun and easy to run. The best part has been going gonzo on them with using various high level creatures from several books. Lately they've been having to tangle with multiple demon lords. Here's my observations.

-- Despite a lot of discussions on these boards about high level characters being too resilient, I have had no issues challenging them during battles. It's true that I don't worry too much about CR. I consider it a rough guide that gets me in the range. I also don't worry about over or under shooting a challenge. Some fights they just own. Other fights they are scrambling to escape (because fighting multiple demon lords and their minions at the same time is scary). Which leads to . . .

-- Part of the fun is not having to worry too much about the party. I can create an epic situation in which their choices decide how hard it is. At this level, they've got the capacity to handle some mistakes in hilariously fun ways. Currently the party is in a world where an old civil war at the heart of a mageocracy resulted in a rift to the Abyss. It alllowed multiple demon lords to set up camps (I call them 'vacation homes'). The world got locked down to stop the spread of the Abyssal legions. The party has inadvertantly put that lock down at risk (because of a desire to collect artifacts and some foolish but funny choices). So they're matching wits against Graz'zt as they try to gain control of the planar portal machine at the center of an abandoned city. If they make poor choices or are too slow, they might find themselves facing off against multiple demon lords, as others gain access to the city. This lets me throw balors around like candy. Have demon lords pop up at inconvenient times. And everyone has a good time. Even if they are running for their lives half of it. In other words, enjoy yourself. You can calibrate as you go. I could NEVER do that in any other edition. Without hours of prep and intimate knowledge of the party's abilities, I'd either annihilate them or everything would be a walkover. And combats would take hours upon hours. In 5e, it's not much more prep than at lower levels and the combats are only modestly longer.

Couple bits of Advice:

1) High level parties will occasionally completely nullify a fight that you thought was going to be epic. Be ok with that. Enjoy it. Let them have their clever moment. Just make sure your storylines are flexible enough to handle those kinds of set backs for the villains.

2) As you learn your party, be comfortable modifying hitpoints and damage outputs to get the effect you want. Don't be a slave to the stats. I mean, it works if you run things by the book. But if Baphomet having an extra 100 hp makes the fight more fun, go ahead and do it.

AD

 

[OB1]

Fixing this is possible, but only if you are experienced, and have set aside enough prep time ahead of play. Calling the effort involved "trivial" is detached from reality.

Being a good DM at any Tier isn’t trivial, but modifying difficulty from the DMG baseline to match your players is a trivial increase in the prep time and experience already required to be a DM. Players trounce a combat? Note the encounter XP and increase it 10% for the next encounter. Repeat until satisfied with the results. Same with max CR. Start at character level and increase by 10% until happy. I’ve found that my group, given their skill, character build choices and magic items can handle monster CR about 150% of their level.

The way you claim to speak for everybody utterly trivializing death is not only not appreciated, it also speaks volumes itself.

What does it speak volumes about? The rules of the game make resurrection easy and common at Tier IV; surely you don’t dispute that. That’s why character survival isn’t what I focus on to provide challenge, but rather accomplishing goals. Players can be resurrected, but they can still fail.

If you don’t like death in your game, follow the DMG encounter guidelines and your players should have no problem avoiding it. If you want challenge, that means death will sometimes occur. Without actual failure you don’t have real challenge, just the appearance of it.
[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] I am not a game designer, I work in movie marketing with a background in film and television production. I run a game every other week for 5 hours for a group that I would consider casual gamers and, when I’m lucky, play another 1-2 sessions a month. On average I prep 2-4 hours for a session, which has decreased over the 4 years I’ve run the campaign as I’ve gotten better as a DM even as the campaign level has increased.

I’ve had 2 permanent PC deaths in 4 years, both during an epic BBEG battle at the end of Tier III, and two death/resurrections in Tier IV after 15 sessions. In every case those deaths meant the PCs accomplishing their goal at the time.