Template/Race, adding cha to AC

[Rystil Arden]

For wizards, a better comparison is the gnome. -2 Str is not a significant penalty to a wizard. Gnomes get the same Con bonus as hobgoblins, and their Small size grants an attack, AC and Hide bonus equivalent to what the hobgoblins get. Other than that, the hobgoblin gets higher base speed, darkvision, +5 bonus on grapple and a few other checks, and +1 to initiative and Dex-based checks. The gnome gets low-light vision, better illusions, a saving throw bonus against illusions, situational attack and dodge bonuses, two additional +2 skill bonuses, and weapon familiarity that a wizard won't use. I think that the gnome has the overall edge.

Hobgoblins don't need to win out on Wizards though--that isn't their area of expertise. And I would contest that the -5 on grapples and such and 20 foot move speed is a very significant penalty. Grappling monsters will slaughter Gnome Wizards--I've seen it happen. And the hobgoblin still beats the elf, whose Favoured Class is Wizard. They effectively make the elf race obsolete.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you want em at LA +1, you better start buffing. Giving them a charisma penalty makes sense to me, just like it does for orcs, too, so if you want to debuff em down to LA +0 even more, drop their cha.

As I said in my original post, making Hobgoblins LA +0 is a mistake, but making them LA +1 is a much worse mistake. They need to be edited to fit in one or the other, but right now they don't.

Warforged

Don't even bring in the Warforged. They are so incredibly broken for LA +0 that they make the other races tremble, even before you use the Reforged at epic combo to replace all their nonepic feats with epic ones. The only reason they are LA +0 in Eberron is because they are an intrinsic part of the setting of Eberron and the designers wanted to encourage playing them because of it. Similarly, in a setting where Hobgoblins were the rulers and other humanoids their vassals, the current Hobgoblin stats at LA +0 would be fine (The current Hobgoblin stats are much weaker than the crazy Warforged)

 

[Klaus]

Hobgoblin: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Move Silently, Darkvision 60'.

Elf: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot, Low-light vision, Immunity to sleep, +2 saves vs. Enchantment, Four Martial Weapon Proficiencies (rapier, longsword, longbow, shortbow -- all 'no brainer' weapons).

I call 'em balanced.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hobgoblin: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Move Silently, Darkvision 60'.

Elf: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot, Low-light vision, Immunity to sleep, +2 saves vs. Enchantment, Four Martial Weapon Proficiencies (rapier, longsword, longbow, shortbow -- all 'no brainer' weapons).

I call 'em balanced.

See my analysis above that sets each ability against the others--the Hobgoblin is significantly more powerful than the Elf.

 

[Klaus]

I read your analysis. I just don't agree with it. By your own logic, the +4 Con is facing Immunity to Sleep, +2 vs. Enchantments and four Martial Weapon Proficiencies, plus the fact that elves need only 4 hours of rest per night (not a small advantage, and I just recalled it now). I'd be torn between making a hobgoblin or an elf. Which means that, to me, they're balanced.

 

[brehobit]

Quick note: The War Dancer base class (Dragon Comp.) adds CHR to AC at 1st level (assuming no armor). Dodge bonus I believe, which is just as good as deflection I'd argue (some pluses, some minuses) Assuming the same armor restiction was applied to the racial feature, I'd put it at well below +1 LA.

Mark

 

[szilard]

Consider that a level one Monk can add their Wisdom bonus to AC (as a better bonus type than Deflection)... and that Charisma can be substituted with a feat.

The first level of Monk comes with a ton of other things. Is Monk 1 worth much, much more than +1 LA? If not, than this ability should be less than +1 LA.

-Stuart

 

[Bront]

Consider that a level one Monk can add their Wisdom bonus to AC (as a better bonus type than Deflection)... and that Charisma can be substituted with a feat.

The first level of Monk comes with a ton of other things. Is Monk 1 worth much, much more than +1 LA? If not, than this ability should be less than +1 LA.

-Stuart

Insight = Deflection in pretty much every way. Only in the fact that few items grant an insight bonus, but any deflection item could be shifted to an Insight bonus per RAW with no real problems.

As for the Hobgoblin/Elf thing, I think a Hobgoblin lines up fairly well as an LA 0 race. An Elf is not a weak LA 0 race (Half elf on the other hand is suposedly balanced by the favored class thing, which is broken as well, so they are pretty bad). I could see a hobgoblin get something like a Cha -2 that would balance it out a little better if you're worried, or perhaps just a racial penalty to some skills. But I wouldn't be against making the Hobgoblin an LA 0 race in my home campaign.

 

[Question]

Insight is better than deflection, insight AC items cost more than their counterparts in deflection, and you can stack core rings of deflections with it. Not all DMs will allow you to make rings of insight.

 

[Bront]

I disagree. Functionaly, it's nearly identical, it just has the item issue, but if you look at non-standard bonuses, both are listed (actualy, deflection is listed, insight is not).