temple prostitution
- Thread starter tleilaxu
- Start date
yuppers
Here is one brief I found on the internet.
http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org/intersex.html
It does not discuss it in detail nor its historical or social impact, frequency ect. At least I don't think it does, I just skimmed it. I generally use the library for such things and wander into professional texts/papers. If you are more intersted go to Anthropology and Medical sources looking up gender, gender fixing, male cutting, circumsision, penisdectomy ect. It is an eye popper. There is a lot of stink about African female cutting in the press today but male cutting is rarely addressed (of course, female cutting seems a bit extemem and mor
e brutal - and I think it is). While we are on female cutting in Africa, the same occurs with growing frequency in America but under a different guise. Currently, one of the quickest growing areas of plastic surgery is labia reconstrcution. With the advent of internet porn and exotic dancing, it seems a perfect labial appearnece is coming to fore. As with breasts, reconstructive surgery is handling the issue. And lest you think this is an exclusively female arena, think again. Males are undergoing increasing high numbers of operations to improve the butt, chest and thighs as well as penis (a botched case is in court in Britain right now).
There is a lot of 'fixin' goign on in this country.
As for the Homosexual and Lesbian comment, it was a missive but the "Um...this is breathtakingly wrong." hardly constitutes a discussion, rebuttal or argument so am not certain how or if to respond.
As for the Geisha as a prostitute. I hate to beat a dead horse, but it is not prostitution in any sense of the word. And I am not sure how to address this without going into a long history of the geisha, prostitution in the west and relative manners of percieveing and catagorizin these activities.
First though, because Americans and Westerners in general have no social category similar to that of a geisha, we tend to lump them into the nearest convenient category. Thats understandable, if not wholly unjustified. In the west there is nothing like a geisha. nothing. sothe tendency is to lump that group in with prostitutes. The reason is that sexual services seem to be exchanged for money. But the context and nature of that exchange are poorly understood and, in many cases, willingly misunderstood. It is much easier to lump people into preexisting categories then wrap one's mind around a new. That seems to be a common human trait.
Sex is not a forgone conclusion. During the Ebo period it was forbidden. When sexual relations occur it can take up wards of 10 years to happen, but also happens in shorter periods of time. Geisha who engage in sexual intercourse with their customers too often are looked down upon by other Geisha. More often than not, potrons of the geisha houses avoid sex with the girls for fear it will ruin the experience and nature of the environment. The girl can refuse any cutomer once reachin iki. geisha often have boyfriends. They are generally well respected.
Geisha are distinct social, cultural. political and economic group. Prostitutes are designated differently (Yoju I believe) both legally and culturally. Having met several Geisha and innumerable Japanese, I have to say, they are continually confounded at Americans persistance desire to misunderstand that institution!
As for temples and prostitutes. First, do not use the word prostitute unless you want to convey that. Do the temples actually run brothels? Would there be a reason for this? Make up a term and create the activity into something you want.
This is my suggestion. I mean, if I wanted this as part of my Campaign Setting. For a cleric or paladin to gain a level he or she must engage in sexual intercourse with a priest/ess. The passing of the seed is a ritual and spritual activity which energizes the god in question. The god literally consumes the power of your being and grows therefore. The god then shows praise to those who helped him by giving them a level. However, if one were to do this, it should probably be an across the board thing. All gods would require the same of their followers. Just an idea.
As for running a straight up whore house. Thats fine too. Perhaps the temple grounds are the only place it could be legal, perhaps the purity of the temple grounds purifes those who act in said manner, perhaps it is a socail service for women, providing women whowould otherwise be incapable of caring for themselves a manner of doing so. Many things are possible. But do not limit yourself by catagorizing them as prostitutes. As a fantasy setting you can really break the mold and creae a fasscinating environment.
davis
Here is one brief I found on the internet.
http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org/intersex.html
It does not discuss it in detail nor its historical or social impact, frequency ect. At least I don't think it does, I just skimmed it. I generally use the library for such things and wander into professional texts/papers. If you are more intersted go to Anthropology and Medical sources looking up gender, gender fixing, male cutting, circumsision, penisdectomy ect. It is an eye popper. There is a lot of stink about African female cutting in the press today but male cutting is rarely addressed (of course, female cutting seems a bit extemem and mor
e brutal - and I think it is). While we are on female cutting in Africa, the same occurs with growing frequency in America but under a different guise. Currently, one of the quickest growing areas of plastic surgery is labia reconstrcution. With the advent of internet porn and exotic dancing, it seems a perfect labial appearnece is coming to fore. As with breasts, reconstructive surgery is handling the issue. And lest you think this is an exclusively female arena, think again. Males are undergoing increasing high numbers of operations to improve the butt, chest and thighs as well as penis (a botched case is in court in Britain right now).
There is a lot of 'fixin' goign on in this country.
As for the Homosexual and Lesbian comment, it was a missive but the "Um...this is breathtakingly wrong." hardly constitutes a discussion, rebuttal or argument so am not certain how or if to respond.
As for the Geisha as a prostitute. I hate to beat a dead horse, but it is not prostitution in any sense of the word. And I am not sure how to address this without going into a long history of the geisha, prostitution in the west and relative manners of percieveing and catagorizin these activities.
First though, because Americans and Westerners in general have no social category similar to that of a geisha, we tend to lump them into the nearest convenient category. Thats understandable, if not wholly unjustified. In the west there is nothing like a geisha. nothing. sothe tendency is to lump that group in with prostitutes. The reason is that sexual services seem to be exchanged for money. But the context and nature of that exchange are poorly understood and, in many cases, willingly misunderstood. It is much easier to lump people into preexisting categories then wrap one's mind around a new. That seems to be a common human trait.
Sex is not a forgone conclusion. During the Ebo period it was forbidden. When sexual relations occur it can take up wards of 10 years to happen, but also happens in shorter periods of time. Geisha who engage in sexual intercourse with their customers too often are looked down upon by other Geisha. More often than not, potrons of the geisha houses avoid sex with the girls for fear it will ruin the experience and nature of the environment. The girl can refuse any cutomer once reachin iki. geisha often have boyfriends. They are generally well respected.
Geisha are distinct social, cultural. political and economic group. Prostitutes are designated differently (Yoju I believe) both legally and culturally. Having met several Geisha and innumerable Japanese, I have to say, they are continually confounded at Americans persistance desire to misunderstand that institution!
As for temples and prostitutes. First, do not use the word prostitute unless you want to convey that. Do the temples actually run brothels? Would there be a reason for this? Make up a term and create the activity into something you want.
This is my suggestion. I mean, if I wanted this as part of my Campaign Setting. For a cleric or paladin to gain a level he or she must engage in sexual intercourse with a priest/ess. The passing of the seed is a ritual and spritual activity which energizes the god in question. The god literally consumes the power of your being and grows therefore. The god then shows praise to those who helped him by giving them a level. However, if one were to do this, it should probably be an across the board thing. All gods would require the same of their followers. Just an idea.
As for running a straight up whore house. Thats fine too. Perhaps the temple grounds are the only place it could be legal, perhaps the purity of the temple grounds purifes those who act in said manner, perhaps it is a socail service for women, providing women whowould otherwise be incapable of caring for themselves a manner of doing so. Many things are possible. But do not limit yourself by catagorizing them as prostitutes. As a fantasy setting you can really break the mold and creae a fasscinating environment.
davis
Last edited:
buzz
Adventurer
Coming in late
My advice to you would be to take a look at Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman and re-think the entire basis of this thread.
There were no "temple prostitutes." There were priestesses, and having sex was a sacrament. "Temple prostitute" is simply history as written by the winners, i.e., the patriarchy.
Signed,
Buzz the raging Merlin Stone fanboy who dons his flame-retardant skivvies.
My advice to you would be to take a look at Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman and re-think the entire basis of this thread.
There were no "temple prostitutes." There were priestesses, and having sex was a sacrament. "Temple prostitute" is simply history as written by the winners, i.e., the patriarchy.
Signed,
Buzz the raging Merlin Stone fanboy who dons his flame-retardant skivvies.
righteeo
Buzz is absolutely correct here. As with the Geisha, there is no proper terminology in the west to describe that catagory of activity or the person who undertakes it. So a convenient category is chosen - and one thoat wholly misleads the reader as to the nature and meaning of that position.
Consider this, i Iran today there is an institution of marriage called sigeh. It is an officially sanctioned and religiously sanctioned marriage. the marriage can last anywhere from 30 minutes to 99 years. women who offer themselves work in the holy city of Qom and it is a thriving part of the environment. Many westerners quickly discount this institution as a legal and religious sanction for prostitution. But really, it is not. It is in part a way of marrying and avoiding heavy marriage ceremony costs, allows those who love one another but can afford nor get apprroval for a marriage otherwise, a manner of marrying. It is officially and culturally accepted, something peculiar to Shia Islam and an age old practise.
Now, the flip side is that it does provide an income for women who are otherwise denied access to jobs (and in Iran that is a lot). Prostitution does exist in Iran and is on the verge of being legalized and controlled. The suggestion has been put forth to open up House's of Chastity to accomodate this professsion. Prostitution is wrong, Sigeh is not.
So again, the descriptor is poorly chosen or so loaded as to convey something it likely should not.
Davis
Buzz is absolutely correct here. As with the Geisha, there is no proper terminology in the west to describe that catagory of activity or the person who undertakes it. So a convenient category is chosen - and one thoat wholly misleads the reader as to the nature and meaning of that position.
Consider this, i Iran today there is an institution of marriage called sigeh. It is an officially sanctioned and religiously sanctioned marriage. the marriage can last anywhere from 30 minutes to 99 years. women who offer themselves work in the holy city of Qom and it is a thriving part of the environment. Many westerners quickly discount this institution as a legal and religious sanction for prostitution. But really, it is not. It is in part a way of marrying and avoiding heavy marriage ceremony costs, allows those who love one another but can afford nor get apprroval for a marriage otherwise, a manner of marrying. It is officially and culturally accepted, something peculiar to Shia Islam and an age old practise.
Now, the flip side is that it does provide an income for women who are otherwise denied access to jobs (and in Iran that is a lot). Prostitution does exist in Iran and is on the verge of being legalized and controlled. The suggestion has been put forth to open up House's of Chastity to accomodate this professsion. Prostitution is wrong, Sigeh is not.
So again, the descriptor is poorly chosen or so loaded as to convey something it likely should not.
Davis
Re: Coming in late
We've got a good group of people here so I think you're flame safe
To say there were no temple 'prostitutes' though is to make sort of the same mistake you are trying to warn against by subscribing to a too narrow definition of 'prostitution,' which, aside from its connotation, means simply sex for hire. They may be priestesses but they're getting paid to get down. That is prostitution.
Also, as regards the origin of the practice in Mesopotamia, the sex was not 'sacramental.' It was not looked down on like it would be now, as there were goddesses (like in pretty much all polytheistic religions) who were, in effect, divine prostitutes; still, it wasn't exactly a religious experience.
buzz said:My advice to you would be to take a look at Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman and re-think the entire basis of this thread.
There were no "temple prostitutes." There were priestesses, and having sex was a sacrament. "Temple prostitute" is simply history as written by the winners, i.e., the patriarchy.
Signed,
Buzz the raging Merlin Stone fanboy who dons his flame-retardant skivvies.
We've got a good group of people here so I think you're flame safe
To say there were no temple 'prostitutes' though is to make sort of the same mistake you are trying to warn against by subscribing to a too narrow definition of 'prostitution,' which, aside from its connotation, means simply sex for hire. They may be priestesses but they're getting paid to get down. That is prostitution.
Also, as regards the origin of the practice in Mesopotamia, the sex was not 'sacramental.' It was not looked down on like it would be now, as there were goddesses (like in pretty much all polytheistic religions) who were, in effect, divine prostitutes; still, it wasn't exactly a religious experience.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Story with Herodotus
This thread actually has me reading the entirety of Herodotus for the first time, previously only read sections for fun and profit, and he prefaces the passage I quoted earlier with a description of another interesting custom.
Acording to our good Greek friend: The passage describing Temple Prostitution is meant to be read in contrast with an earlier mentioned custom of the same people.
The first custom is to gather all the women of a community who marriageable at a certain point in the year and auction them off. The pretty or more desirable women are auctioned first, and a large pot of money is set aside. Money is then drawn from this pool and given to men who want to marry the less eligible women. So the pretty pay the way for the less fortunate. Everyone is given a year in their marriages and if they don't like then the women and the money is returned. Apparently this custom became compromised over the time Herodotus was writing, however, as a result of the Persian conquest.
Herodotus says he really admires the above custom, thinks it very wise, but doesn't approve, finds it strange and less admirable, of the custom of Temple Prostitution as he describes it.
I'm really mystified as to what Herodotus meant by setting up this comparison except that he felt a lot of sympathy for homely women.
He's a great writer, and while he may not have the best source method in the world you could do a lot worse for cultural clarity.
This thread actually has me reading the entirety of Herodotus for the first time, previously only read sections for fun and profit, and he prefaces the passage I quoted earlier with a description of another interesting custom.
Acording to our good Greek friend: The passage describing Temple Prostitution is meant to be read in contrast with an earlier mentioned custom of the same people.
The first custom is to gather all the women of a community who marriageable at a certain point in the year and auction them off. The pretty or more desirable women are auctioned first, and a large pot of money is set aside. Money is then drawn from this pool and given to men who want to marry the less eligible women. So the pretty pay the way for the less fortunate. Everyone is given a year in their marriages and if they don't like then the women and the money is returned. Apparently this custom became compromised over the time Herodotus was writing, however, as a result of the Persian conquest.
Herodotus says he really admires the above custom, thinks it very wise, but doesn't approve, finds it strange and less admirable, of the custom of Temple Prostitution as he describes it.
I'm really mystified as to what Herodotus meant by setting up this comparison except that he felt a lot of sympathy for homely women.
He's a great writer, and while he may not have the best source method in the world you could do a lot worse for cultural clarity.
David Argall
First Post
game purpose
So what game purpose is this supposed to supply? If they are to just be scenery, you don't need to develop much. But before you define much else, you need to define their purpose.
Some possibilities...
Gather information. Boy who patronizes or girl who works gets plus to any gather information skills. Players should know this so they will patronize the institution. [players should not know that they are also providing information and this is how the baddies are always aware of their plans.]
Personal complications. Girl gets pregnant and demands child support. The more you spend, the more you have to adventure.
Adventure hooks. Girl needs rescue from being enslaved for prostitution.
Etc, etc... But just what do you want the hookers to do for the game?
Oh yes. The traditional price for a lass was $2, back in the days when $1 was a good day's pay. You can adjust that for class, but the basic value means the average man can't afford more than once a week, if that.
So what game purpose is this supposed to supply? If they are to just be scenery, you don't need to develop much. But before you define much else, you need to define their purpose
Some possibilities...
Gather information. Boy who patronizes or girl who works gets plus to any gather information skills. Players should know this so they will patronize the institution. [players should not know that they are also providing information and this is how the baddies are always aware of their plans.]
Personal complications. Girl
Adventure hooks. Girl needs rescue from being enslaved for prostitution.
Etc, etc... But just what do you want the hookers to do for the game?
Oh yes. The traditional price for a lass was $2, back in the days when $1 was a good day's pay. You can adjust that for class, but the basic value means the average man can't afford more than once a week, if that.
Re: game purpose
This just occured to me: if you've seen Brotherhood of the Wolf there is a fair amount of brothel-style interaction.
Hmm, I don't want to give away the plot of the movie, so I'll just say give the movie a go if you think the Prostitution might take the form of a traditional "whore house" (the movie is set around 17th century France IIRC, give or take a century).
It's an awesome movie for gamers anyway I think, as the plot is VERY D&D (if you have an awesome DM anyway).
This just occured to me: if you've seen Brotherhood of the Wolf there is a fair amount of brothel-style interaction.
Hmm, I don't want to give away the plot of the movie, so I'll just say give the movie a go if you think the Prostitution might take the form of a traditional "whore house" (the movie is set around 17th century France IIRC, give or take a century).
It's an awesome movie for gamers anyway I think, as the plot is VERY D&D (if you have an awesome DM anyway).
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