Temporal railroading.
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Herremann the Wise
First Post
RangerWickett said:
No your not.
This is the classic difference between an RPG and a story read out by the DM. When what your characters do has no effect on the game, what's the point in playing? You might as well just gather around the table and listen to your DM's idea and drop the whole player facade thing.
However, if he wanted the guy to escape, it should have been fairly easy without having to so obviously break the rules and ruin any realism the game had for you. The DM would have had to kill or seriously maim your character to do it but such is the price when you want to strictly follow a story arc - ie railroad.
You should point your DM to the Burning Void website and here: Game Masters: Free Will and Improvisation in particular. They have excellent points to make about Free Will and RPGing in general.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
RangerWickett said:
I may have taken issue with your magic thread, but this is whole different matter. I don't blame you for being frustrated. Going into DnD thinking that your playing a game and finding out that you're really just props for a novel someone is writing isn't fun. In my day, a dungeon was a map with some encounter areas on it, players decided where they went and lived or died by their dice rolls. The story was what happened AFTER the dice were rolled, not something that the DM figured out before hand. If your ideas and luck don't have an influence over the outcome, why play?
scipio
First Post
I am the DM in question, and yes, I was unaware that Rangerwickett was so upset about our adventure last night. It would also surprise me somewhat if the other players had the same complaint, but I concede that they might.
While he has some of the mechanics details a little off (simply because of the iceberg mentioned above, esp with respect to the dimensional lock), I thought I adjuticated fairly during this episode.
The party used a wish from a cursed item to get to the site early. This item has been clearly shown to result in really bad results when used (its basically the Monkey's Paw); however, the player rolled very well using our luck system (d100, high=good). At the time, I thought getting to their destination faster while having the city of the enemy distracted would work, but still with the undesirable result of the other bad guys arriving - a tightrope walk IMHO.
The wish worked as stated in the DMG.
The "brain pool" was reacting to another threat.
Another player used a well-timed strategy to completely clear the path to the brain pool (I'm starting to hate that phrase)
The player who would normally spit in the high level NPC's face and refuse to go on his quest was not present at this adventure. I actually expected the group to refuse and go do something else entirely, i.e. the adventure I had planned (esp since the NPC and the players themselves thought the mission was both suicidal and unlikely to succeed - it's a city of Illithids!). It was an effort to introduce the NPC.
Rangerwickett failed to mention that they destroyed the Illithid brain pool (ugh, last one) and forced them all to flee the world.
The other issue is - I have 3 sessions at best to wrap up what would probably have taken months to resolve, since I'm leaving Atlanta forever. If things seem roughly planned or "temporally railroaded" I apologize to all my players.
As to what has happened in the past, this party has saved 2 cities, killing the BBEG in one and soundly defeating the other through good tactics, foiled an attempt to destroy a safe haven, and have killed reams of NPCs (I have no DMPCs, the guys in this last adventure weren't even statted out!).
So, I will take the typed out lashings of this thread in stride, and will talk to my players to find out what everyone wants for these final sessions...
While he has some of the mechanics details a little off (simply because of the iceberg mentioned above, esp with respect to the dimensional lock), I thought I adjuticated fairly during this episode.
The party used a wish from a cursed item to get to the site early. This item has been clearly shown to result in really bad results when used (its basically the Monkey's Paw); however, the player rolled very well using our luck system (d100, high=good). At the time, I thought getting to their destination faster while having the city of the enemy distracted would work, but still with the undesirable result of the other bad guys arriving - a tightrope walk IMHO.
The wish worked as stated in the DMG.
The "brain pool" was reacting to another threat.
Another player used a well-timed strategy to completely clear the path to the brain pool (I'm starting to hate that phrase)
The player who would normally spit in the high level NPC's face and refuse to go on his quest was not present at this adventure. I actually expected the group to refuse and go do something else entirely, i.e. the adventure I had planned (esp since the NPC and the players themselves thought the mission was both suicidal and unlikely to succeed - it's a city of Illithids!). It was an effort to introduce the NPC.
Rangerwickett failed to mention that they destroyed the Illithid brain pool (ugh, last one) and forced them all to flee the world.
The other issue is - I have 3 sessions at best to wrap up what would probably have taken months to resolve, since I'm leaving Atlanta forever. If things seem roughly planned or "temporally railroaded" I apologize to all my players.
As to what has happened in the past, this party has saved 2 cities, killing the BBEG in one and soundly defeating the other through good tactics, foiled an attempt to destroy a safe haven, and have killed reams of NPCs (I have no DMPCs, the guys in this last adventure weren't even statted out!).
So, I will take the typed out lashings of this thread in stride, and will talk to my players to find out what everyone wants for these final sessions...
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I must admit - I hate temporal railroading.
But more than that, I hate any situation where a bad guy escapes and there was basically nothing I could have done to stop it. It really, really, really sucks.
That includes bad guys that escape "by the rules". Because usually if I feel that they escaped and there was nothing I could do to stop it, it means that they had an unusual quantity of gear dedicated to the sole task of escaping. Which means they expected to fail and have to run away. So why did they try in the first place? Just to annoy me?
But more than that, I hate any situation where a bad guy escapes and there was basically nothing I could have done to stop it. It really, really, really sucks.
That includes bad guys that escape "by the rules". Because usually if I feel that they escaped and there was nothing I could do to stop it, it means that they had an unusual quantity of gear dedicated to the sole task of escaping. Which means they expected to fail and have to run away. So why did they try in the first place? Just to annoy me?
Lord Pendragon
First Post
I've only used Temporal Railroading once. My PCs were heading into a buried temple to rescue a kidnapped druid. Once they'd gotten reasonably close to the sacrificial room, I "started up" the ceremony. So basically, no matter how long it took them to get to that point, the ceremony wouldn't "start up" until that point.
Why'd I do this? I wanted the PCs to have a chance to supercede the ceremony, arrive during the ceremony, or arrive too late. Since the ceremony was only twenty minutes long or something, it was unfeasible, IMO, to start up the ceremony too far in advance.
It worked out well. The PCs found the hidden door to the sacrificial room and, had they only opened the door instead of stopping to spend several rounds buffing, would have arrived in the middle of the ceremony to disrupt it.
As it turns out, they opened the door and the druid was already spread all over. They did still manage to kill the baddies, though.
Why'd I do this? I wanted the PCs to have a chance to supercede the ceremony, arrive during the ceremony, or arrive too late. Since the ceremony was only twenty minutes long or something, it was unfeasible, IMO, to start up the ceremony too far in advance.
It worked out well. The PCs found the hidden door to the sacrificial room and, had they only opened the door instead of stopping to spend several rounds buffing, would have arrived in the middle of the ceremony to disrupt it.
As it turns out, they opened the door and the druid was already spread all over. They did still manage to kill the baddies, though.
Riggs
First Post
I think that whether or not a party has been railroaded, if it feels like it then it pretty much was. The cool drama and effect is lost this way, so sounds like maybe this session was less fun than usual or than Scipio intended.
Reading Scipio's post, it seems like he had every intent on fun and not screwing the party or putting his story/ego first, and I applaud the polite gesture on his part. Seems like many here have heard about the session issue before Scipio did and that is not good.
I am a newbie DM, and my last campaign had goods and bads, but one night was very bad, with railroads aplenty to cause a dramatic scene and ended up with much player frustration. However, my players held their tongues that night, but I spoke with them soon after about it and they kindly informed me of their view, which was despairing hopelessness and a rather fruitless and pointless evening of play. Now I take that to heart and press on with ideas, instead of refusing to DM again had they lambasted me or embarrassed me here.
It's a cooperative effort, gaming, and I rely on my buddies as sounding boards and honest opinions.
Reading Scipio's post, it seems like he had every intent on fun and not screwing the party or putting his story/ego first, and I applaud the polite gesture on his part. Seems like many here have heard about the session issue before Scipio did and that is not good.
I am a newbie DM, and my last campaign had goods and bads, but one night was very bad, with railroads aplenty to cause a dramatic scene and ended up with much player frustration. However, my players held their tongues that night, but I spoke with them soon after about it and they kindly informed me of their view, which was despairing hopelessness and a rather fruitless and pointless evening of play. Now I take that to heart and press on with ideas, instead of refusing to DM again had they lambasted me or embarrassed me here.
It's a cooperative effort, gaming, and I rely on my buddies as sounding boards and honest opinions.
Lord Pendragon said:
I find this less "Temporal Railroading" and more a set piece encounter, with the point being the challenge of stopping an ongoing ceremony.
Set Piecing is fine, lets face it it would be no fun for people to play their Champion like alter egos to find that they are late to the party all the beer is gone, and the chips are stale, due to their carriage breaking down.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
D&D is not a storytelling vehicle.
It is a role playing game.
Each of the players play the role of a Hero after some fashion.
The DM plays the role of Everyone Else.
I'd be tempted to tell the DM to go write a novel instead of playing D&D, because it seems like he wants to tell a story and not play a game.
EDIT
I've read the rest of the thread (including the DM's post), thuogh the above remains good advice for every DM.
What I point out is this:
Work for what purpose? What were you trying to accomplish?
It still sounds like they were railroaded, even if you mostly went with the flow of things, there at the end. Why did the enemy have to escape? Why wouldn't the NPC help? Why did they escape in "the nick of time"?
I can understand better why you did it...it's a really common DM mistake, and some people don't even really see it that way and like to play the game that way, and you fell back on your instincts when they did something unexpected....but what work was being done? Why did the enemy need to be distracted? Why did they have to get to the destination faster?
It seems that there was a communications break down somewhere along the line where the players expected that the adventure wasn't what it was really supposed to be. The powerful NPC didn't explain it well enough, the PC's didn't have any reason to *not* risk their lives like this, etc.....
And bonus DM points for listening to the group. Bravo.
It is a role playing game.
Each of the players play the role of a Hero after some fashion.
The DM plays the role of Everyone Else.
I'd be tempted to tell the DM to go write a novel instead of playing D&D, because it seems like he wants to tell a story and not play a game.
EDIT
I've read the rest of the thread (including the DM's post), thuogh the above remains good advice for every DM.
What I point out is this:
Work for what purpose? What were you trying to accomplish?
It still sounds like they were railroaded, even if you mostly went with the flow of things, there at the end. Why did the enemy have to escape? Why wouldn't the NPC help? Why did they escape in "the nick of time"?
I can understand better why you did it...it's a really common DM mistake, and some people don't even really see it that way and like to play the game that way, and you fell back on your instincts when they did something unexpected....but what work was being done? Why did the enemy need to be distracted? Why did they have to get to the destination faster?
It seems that there was a communications break down somewhere along the line where the players expected that the adventure wasn't what it was really supposed to be. The powerful NPC didn't explain it well enough, the PC's didn't have any reason to *not* risk their lives like this, etc.....
And bonus DM points for listening to the group. Bravo.
Last edited:
Numion
First Post
I think there should be room allowed for doing some heroic thing "just in time". Unfortunately this usually means that there is some DM fudging around. I'm all for that - it doesn't bother me at all that the BBEG has been scheming to destroy the world for years, and we show up to stop him when he's minutes from completing the task. Very unlikely, but thats the life of an adventurer. "Um, sorry the world is destroyed. A while back you took an extra night resting, you know, and now the BBEG was a day early and destroyed the world while you were just getting near his Volcano Lair".
However, I wouldn't like the BBEG getting away by DM fiat. Maybe it was the case here, or maybe it wasn't. Sounds a bit suspect that the BBEG knew to run away from the silenced stone - what if it had been one with extended radius, would he still have done the same? Plus the part about dimensional lock.
However, I wouldn't like the BBEG getting away by DM fiat. Maybe it was the case here, or maybe it wasn't. Sounds a bit suspect that the BBEG knew to run away from the silenced stone - what if it had been one with extended radius, would he still have done the same? Plus the part about dimensional lock.
