Ten observations on Castles & Crusades compared to d20.

[Akrasia]

Yech! Thank you for telling us about that, it does not sound like my cup of tea, no, not at all... I like skill checks, not having skills is what made me switch from AD&D to Runequest way back when. I had been thinking about C&C, but not now.

The Auld Grump

Well, in my group we treat 'primes' as 'skill bundles' (i.e. a character with a dexterity prime is accomplished in all 'dexterity-like' skills, except for things that are specifically class abilities).

If that is too general for you, it should be easy to plug in a skill system without any trouble.

And the CKG will have rules for skills.

So the system might be easy to fix to your liking...

 

[Akrasia]

Does C&C give suggestions on modifying for difficulty? Or what you can do with different abilities? If a very strong but heavily armored charecter needs to swim across a river, how much guidance does it have?

"Yes" to all questions (except for the last one, the answer to which is "a fair bit of guidance").

Also, how do attack roles work? is there BAB?

Each class as its own BAB (called BtH for 'bonus to hit') progression.

 

[Henry]

Moving to OGL forum.

 

[Akrasia]

Moving to OGL forum.

Cruelly shoved away yet again!

 

[Breakdaddy]

"7. Turning undead is better in C&C."

How so?

This is, of course, subjective. However, I will briefly explain the mechanic to you so that you can decide for yourself (for the record, I agree that C&C's turn undead mechanic is loads better than D&D's).
Turn undead requires a successful wisdom attribute check (you would definitely want wis as a prime for this ability to be effective!). The challenge level of the turn attempt is the hit dice of the undead you are attempting to turn. A cleric can only attempt to turn, destroy, or (for evil clerics) control one type of undead per round. The number of undead actually turned on a successful attempt is determined by the undead's type: common, extraordinary, or unique.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

Well, in my group we treat 'primes' as 'skill bundles' (i.e. a character with a dexterity prime is accomplished in all 'dexterity-like' skills, except for things that are specifically class abilities).

Yeah, you still do skill checks, it's just that you're pretty good at all skills related to your primes, and not so good at skills not related to your primes. And since you get to add your class level for most checks, it's like maxing out these skills every time you level.

It does not give you fine control over character design like you get in d20, but it is easy and fast. And the archetypes are preserved (be that good or bad).

 

[bolie]

C&C feels like old-school D&D in that the classes are more rigidly defined, there are no skills or feats or PrCs and the monsters are very one-dimensional (no stats or classes or anything). The mechanics are not very old-school.

Turning undead is much easier in C&C... I can actually remember the mechanic instead having to look it up.

Saves are nice because there are six (one for each stat) and they are rolled together with attribute checks. It's not clear to me why D&D has a special mechanic for certain types of Con, Wis, and Dex checks and not for Str, Int, and Cha checks.

Preparation time is less, but actual game play can be difficult if you want to do things you're used to doing in d20 games. C&C doesn't have mechanics for a lot of things that d20 does, so you either don't do it, make up a new mechanic, or use the d20 mechanic. You can do this quickly but it's not always satisfying.

Haste has been "gutted" in C&C in a different way than in 3.5e...

Bolie IV

 

[reanjr]

Haste has been "gutted" in C&C in a different way than in 3.5e...

Bolie IV

How is it gutted? (I never had a problem with the 3.0 version; it was powerful, but not overpowered)

 

[Mythmere1]

Yech! Thank you for telling us about that, it does not sound like my cup of tea, no, not at all... I like skill checks, not having skills is what made me switch from AD&D to Runequest way back when. I had been thinking about C&C, but not now.

The Auld Grump

I think anyone who totally loves the d20 skill check system will dislike C&C. That's not a bash on C&C - I love the game. But there are two types of gamers (roughly, and in this context) - those who enjoy deep specificity and don't mind the extra time it takes - and those who think that skills (and other d20 features) take too long and inhibit what's important about play.

Although you can house rule lots of things in C&C (like pulling modifiers from d20 for convenience, as mentioned above), putting in a skill system would be hard. I think one of the core objectives of C&Cs design is built around freeing character classes from an inherent reliance on either skills or feats.

There is going to be a skill system optional rule included in the CKG, as I understand, but that book won't be out until GenCon. And the rule will still probably be highly simplified.

C&C isn't for some people, period. However, if you're not sure, I'd recommend giving it a try. Many of the benefits aren't immediately apparent, and it's worth listening to the people who've played it. It has a truly 1E feel, preparation time is incredibly short, and the pacing is much faster, leaving more time for role-playing. It FEELS different from 3E. Very odd, but very cool.

 

[jester47]

I ripped the seige engine and turning for my house rules. I kicked 3e skills to the curb. However I have made some changes so they both work with 3e better. Since I have made changes to the mechanic, I now call the 3e tack on derived from the SEIGE engine the MOAT system.

Humans get three primes they can allocate whereever they want. Its not based on class in my house rules for 3e. Demihumans and all other races get two primes which they can use like the humans. Monsters that have a "as characters" entry get 2. Monsters that to not have a "as characters" entry get 3.

Class skills are noted on the sheet with the class abilities and for these the character gets to add their class level. If the character has more than one class, the character gets to add the class level appropriate to that skill. If the skill is covered by both classes the character gets to add both class levels. So a Rogue/Fighter would not loose out on climb.

Saves are different too. Instead of having 3 check modifiers, you make an ability/level check against the save target. (using this in 3e, save "DC" levels go through the roof!) If the save is reflex, you use Dex. If the save is Fortitude, you use constitution or Strength, depending on the situation. For example poison would be con, holding open the slowly closing stone door would be Str. Will saves are divided among Cha, Int, and Wis, again depending on the situation. This keeps people from putting their primes in Con, Wis, and Dex and living forever.

Turning in the MOAT engine works like this: The cleric or other class with a turning ability has to beat the base target number (12 or 18) plus the number of hit dice that the undead (or earth creature, or demon, or outsider, allowing for other 3e options) has plus any turn resistance ability. If sucessful, the cleric can turn the monster. The number of monsters that the cleric can turn is based on two factors. If the undead have no int score than the Cleric can turn 1d12 of them (adjusting for cha and greater turning abilities). If the undead are intelligent, but have less hit dice than the cleric, the cleric can turn 1d6 (+ adjustments) of them. If they are intelligent and have more hit dice than the cleric the cleric can only turn one (note no bonus adjustments). If the have 5 hit dice more than the undead they are turning, they can destroy the undead. If they have ten hit dice more they destroy the undead and do the maximum damage.

Thats MOAT!

Aaron.