Tension, Threats And Progression In RPGs

Back when Dungeons & Dragons was new, the designers and most of the players were wargamers. Typical adventures involved threats to the player character's lives and possessions - their money and magic items. As the hobby has grown, more of the participants are not wargamers, and many campaigns must find other ways to create tension, or abandon tension entirely in favor of linear stories or other means. People refuse to have their painstakingly-crafted characters killed.

Back when Dungeons & Dragons was new, the designers and most of the players were wargamers. Typical adventures involved threats to the player character's lives and possessions - their money and magic items. As the hobby has grown, more of the participants are not wargamers, and many campaigns must find other ways to create tension, or abandon tension entirely in favor of linear stories or other means. People refuse to have their painstakingly-crafted characters killed.


". . . a good campaign must have an element of danger and real risk or else it is meaningless - death walks at the shoulder of all adventurers, and that is the true appeal of the game." Gary Gygax

Add to this players who have learned from video games that games never really threaten you – in video games there is always the save game or the respawn, and if your avatar is killed you just come back to life and go pick up your stuff and continue on as though it never happened. These players may not like a game in which their virtual lives can truly be threatened. Unsurprisingly, there's a large segment of video gamers who blame the game if the player fails.

The question arose recently on a LinkedIn group of what GM's can do to create tension other than threaten the physical well-being of characters.

Threatening not only the possessions of characters but also their status or well-being in their community may work. While this may be more acceptable to some than having their avatars' lives threatened, it still runs into the very strong loss aversion that is common in the 21st century. (Loss aversion: people's strong tendency to prefer avoiding losses to acquiring equivalent gains.)

The difference might be that if (say) there's a status track that reflects how much the community trusts the player character, even if the status goes down it's easy to see how it can go back up. It's more generic than, say, destroying the player's favorite magic wand - that wand is never going to come back. The game/campaign also must make whatever statuses are being tracked just as important as magic items and money.

But this still involves the threat that something will be taken away from a player's character, and therefore from the player.

The key to the popularity of Eurostyle tabletop games is that players are on a clear progression from less to more - as contrasted with games where players progress from more to less (as in Chess and all its variants, Checkers - and a great many wargames). Players never lose anything, never have anything destroyed or stolen, hence loss aversion is not involved.

The contrast can become not who keeps or does not keep something, but who progresses faster and who slower, even as everyone is assured of progression. This is the way computer RPGs work, again because your character cannot fail in their tasks, and even death rarely slows them down.

RPGs already have progression in the increasing capability of the character, whether that comes from leveling up, or more skills and feats, or more magic items and money, or something else such as prestige and ownership of land. But the early RPGs all threatened loss of something. How do we structure an RPG, or for that matter any adventure, so that players' loss aversion is not activated?

I don't have a lot of ideas here because, to me, games should always involve some sort of conflict (I strongly dislike Eurogames, which are usually parallel competition puzzles, not games). Conflict implies the possibility of loss. Without the possibility of loss or failure, what tension can you put into a game?

There's a spectrum of what most of us call "games" from a game as a tense challenge at one extreme to a game as an "experience," often a story, at the other extreme. Traditionally, stories required tension, required conflict as a major element, but nowadays stories without that tension have become more popular (also think of "walking simulator" video "games"). Thanks to the visual element that has become more and more important as time passes, video games are better able to provide an experience, although tabletop video games can come close when players have sufficient imagination. (Imagination is a disappearing commodity, but that's a topic for another time.)

I have always been content with threatening what the players possess, whether that's the physical well-being of their characters or their possessions (especially magic items and money). But I came to RPGs from wargaming, just as Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson did.

Perhaps readers can suggest how to structure RPGs without loss aversion, yet without turning the "game" into a story told by the GM that the players merely follow.

​contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Maybe the groups I played with were the outliers but early D&D character creation was often as simple as generate 6 numbers using method outlined by the DM, pick a race, class, buy basic armor and such, and a pregenerated Adventurers Pack that had all of the basic gear and start playing.

Certainly that's how "old skool" things worked. I recall playing that way a good bit too.


Newer games usually have easy ways to recover lost stats, levels and equipment.

They do, and are typically less focused on those as being losses. They're more "story" and less "simulation" or "game". Of course, none of those are outright wrong, it's really up to the group and GM to decide what fits.


I have often felt that the 'Adventure Path' format removes a lot of risk of failure from the game as the path assumes the PCs will succeed. Plus encounters are often softer compared to older games.

It varies, but in general a more story-oriented game has issues if there's major character death, at least without some kind of reasonable replacement rule that lets play go on. New encounters aren't necessarily that soft. 3.X was known for TPKs.
 

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Hussar

Legend
An interesting thought. I watched the Youtube article linked above. He makes a pretty decent argument. In a video game, if you remove all elements of failure then, it really isn't a game anymore. I can see that. The problem with how that relates to the current discussion though is that the current discussion posits that only death or loss of equipment are valid failures. Sure, in a first person shooter, if you play on God Mode, it's not really much of a game anymore. But, even though D&D 5e is far less punishing than OD&D, it's not God Mode. Because we're talking about RPG's, win/loss has a much broader scope. Sure, you can lose by dying. You can lose by breaking your sword. But, you can also lose by failing to rescue the princess.

I remember years ago playing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with a very good friend of mine. In the scenario, your characters must rescue hostages being held at a school by bad guys. ((It's a long time ago, and I'm fuzzy on the exact details)) Now, when we played through it, we crushed the bad guys, but, all the hostages (or at least most of them) died in the process. Talking about the adventure later, I called it "Massacre at ____ School". My friend, who ran the game, corrected me immediately and said, "That's not the name of that scenario. That's what YOU turned it into." :D

So, yeah, we totally failed even though we killed the bad guys and didn't lose any equipment.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I think one thing that motivates ideas like those in the OP is this: it's not obvious how "story losses" (or story wins) directly or indirectly affect the player's position. (It's clear that they affect the character's position - eg in the superhero example, all the NPCs now think the character is a villain.) And if those losses actually don't affect the player's position - eg the GM will manipulate other aspects of the fiction (whether overtly or behind-the-scenes) to make sure everything turns out OK - then it's not entirely clear how the player is actually playing a game.
If "position of the player" is what determines whether something is a game or not, sure. As I've said elsewhere, I tend to think of RPGs more as interactive story than in a game in that sense. I don't actually want a situation where one player is clearly pulling ahead of another. I want the player positions to feel fun and enjoyable, which usually requires things to be reasonably balanced for the player, which usually requires them to be tolerably balanced at the character level.

Of course, now that I think about it some more, a good bit depends on the folks I play with. I wouldn't say we're playing on "easy mode" in general, certainly with one of the groups I often run for and play with. The tactical challenges are substantial in fights, for instance.
 
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pemerton

Legend
now that I think about it some more, a good bit depends on the folks I play with. I wouldn't say we're playing on "easy mode" in general, certainly with one of the groups I often run for and play with. The tactical challenges are substantial in fights, for instance.
When I talk about the player's position, I'm not just referring to tacticl/wargaming-type challenges.

If "position of the player" is what determines whether something is a game or not, sure. As I've said elsewhere, I tend to think of RPGs more as interactive story than in a game in that sense. I don't actually want a situation where one player is clearly pulling ahead of another. I want the player positions to feel fun and enjoyable, which usually requires things to be reasonably balanced for the player, which usually requires them to be tolerably balanced at the character level.
Player's don't necessarily have to be in competition with one another for their to be meaningful player positions.

But if a player's decisions or action declarations for his/her PC don't really change his/her position - most often, because the GM will manipukate other elements of the fiction to ensure that the consequences are the ones the GM wants - then I'm not sure it is a game. This is not just about PC death, but about any of the "story" stakes that have been referred to in this thread.
 

Ah man. After all the warm and fuzzies the last time around, @lewpuls goes full on "git off mah lawn" again. :uhoh:

Umm, what Eurogames are you talking about? Catan certainly has loss conditions, or rather, a win condition which means you have a clear winner in the game. Pandemic has very, very clear loss conditions and you will likely lose as often as you win.

Are we seriously going to entertain that the most popular games in decades aren't really games but are "parallel competition puzzles"? Whatever that is.

Maybe you missed this bit:
The key to the popularity of Eurostyle tabletop games is that players are on a clear progression from less to more - as contrasted with games where players progress from more to less (as in Chess and all its variants, Checkers - and a great many wargames). Players never lose anything, never have anything destroyed or stolen, hence loss aversion is not involved.


In your example, Catan, You start out with 2 houses and 2 roads. You never lose those houses or roads. Over time you just gain more houses, or upgrade them to cities. You place more roads. You get more cards. The only loss you may suffer would be having some cards taken, but you will quickly get more. Each player doesn't worry about losing things they've gained. That's what the OP is talking about with loss aversion.

As to
"parallel competition puzzles" I think there is another term that is less uncommon "multiplayer solitaire" games. I've heard a number of reviewers use this term to describe various games including Agricola or Race for the Galaxy. There's no real direct player interaction.
 

Hussar

Legend
Maybe you missed this bit:


In your example, Catan, You start out with 2 houses and 2 roads. You never lose those houses or roads. Over time you just gain more houses, or upgrade them to cities. You place more roads. You get more cards. The only loss you may suffer would be having some cards taken, but you will quickly get more. Each player doesn't worry about losing things they've gained. That's what the OP is talking about with loss aversion.

As to
"parallel competition puzzles" I think there is another term that is less uncommon "multiplayer solitaire" games. I've heard a number of reviewers use this term to describe various games including Agricola or Race for the Galaxy. There's no real direct player interaction.

But, there are tons of games like that. Even outside of Eurogames. And, accumulating houses and roads are the path to victory, with the win condition being the one to accumulate the fastest. It's not like there isn't a win/loss condition. Just that "take away all your opponent's resources" isn't one of them.

I would also point out the strategic elements involved in road and house building in Catan. If I build a road here, you cannot. If I build a house there, you cannot. So, really, even though no one loses a house or road, you are still losing opportunities and the ability to access other resources. Saying that there is no loss in Catan isn't really all that accurate. No, you can't lose a house, but, you certainly can lose opportunities.

And, as this applies to RPG's, how can we actually apply "take away all your opponent's resources" as a win condition? Who is taking away the resources and who is winning? Sure, my PC "loses" when some NPC takes away my magic sword, but, no one actually wins. It's a meaningless loss really since it does not further anything. All it does is slow down my progress.

Let's face it, I'm going to get another magic sword to replace the one I lost. That's a given. If my PC dies, I just roll up another one and move on. Again, it's not a loss really. All that's happened is delaying forward progress.
 

Sadras

Legend
I'm wondering about the true identity of this [MENTION=6927497]Roland Kippenhan[/MENTION] who just magically sprung out of nowhere to answer [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION].
 

Dale Morrell

First Post
Send your players to the local hardware store so they can buy a bag of concrete and harden the *$&# up!While there, they can buy some timber and nails so they can build a bridge and get over it.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
When I talk about the player's position, I'm not just referring to tacticl/wargaming-type challenges. <...> Player's don't necessarily have to be in competition with one another for their to be meaningful player positions.

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying but in general yes, I agree that it's not just tactical, although having a character be too important tactically or otherwise having a boring but important role (e.g., healer) can often be really frustrating for players.

But if a player's decisions or action declarations for his/her PC don't really change his/her position - most often, because the GM will manipulate other elements of the fiction to ensure that the consequences are the ones the GM wants - then I'm not sure it is a game. This is not just about PC death, but about any of the "story" stakes that have been referred to in this thread.

Oh I don't think that a more narrative-oriented campaign should be consequence-free. Bad choices on the part of a player might well lead to character death and in general I do not play with easy raising of the dead, so if you're dead that's it. I've drained stats, leading to quests to get them fixed, and destroyed items. However, I do work to try to keep the narrative going as both player and, especially, DM and want the players to feel like they're meaningfully contributing to it, not getting boxed out by another player. I also want my world to make reasonable sense as a secondary reality.
 
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