comrade raoul
Explorer
SRD orcs get a Wisdom penalty. Nifft's critique is right on the money.
LA +0 races shouldn't be balanced against the dwarf.
LA +0 races shouldn't be balanced against the dwarf.
Thaellegoth
- Thread starter ChimericDream
- Start date
ChimericDream
First Post
By the way, here is the new version based on drow/orc. I'll repost the elf/orc with it for comparison.
ChimericDream
First Post
Ok, then. What if I added the Wis penalty back in (making it str +2, dex +2, int/wis -2, cha -4) then gave them the scent ability. I am *really* reluctant to drop the cha penalty from -4, as I think it is a core feature of the class.comrade raoul said:
In addition, I'd add the wis and cha penalties to the drow/orc thaellegoth, making it int/wis/cha -2 and give them scent as well, possibly dropping them down to LA+1.
With those changes, do the races seem better balanced?
Dominic Ladon
First Post
No. I'm sorry, but basing the stat bonuses and penalties on the Half Orc template rather than the full orc makes more sense. If you figure that a Half Orc is the cross between an orc and a human, and there is no Wisdom penalties, then it definitely doesn't fit that a half orc - half elf would have a Wisdom penalty. I feel, especially considering that an Orc is a LA +0, that this blending of Orc and Elf by Muzick is quite balanced. It gives a good balance of the positives and negatives of both races.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
muzick said:
IMHO, a -2 to an ability is about the same as -4; it means you won't have players taking classes that depend on that ability score. But with -4, I worry that anything targeting Charisma (and these are few things, but they do exist) will make them utterly die. As a DM, I dislike being put in the position of knowing that if I use a certain Core monster, a certain PC will fail horribly and die.
Your idea of adding penalties to Charisma skills over and above the Charisma penalty itself may be a better idea -- give a -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information; and a +3 to Intimidate. Similarly, you could give them a +3 to Wisdom skills (Spot, Listen, Survival) to give them an "effective" +2 above what their -1 Wisdom penalty inflicts.
- - -
Drow get a bonus to Int and Cha, right? So perhaps just a Wisdom penalty for the Drow/Orc ("Dork") combination? And LA +1 for Str +2, Dex +2, Wis -2 seems very reasonable, especially if you throw in Superior Darkvision. (IMHO it's best to just pick 60 or 120 ft., but I'm a simple man.)
All of the above is, of course, just one penguin's humble opinion.
Cheers, -- N
Arkhandus
First Post
Dominic Ladon said:
The 'deep inner rage' part begs to differ, and infers that a Wisdom penalty is not all that unwarranted. And as mentioned, full-blooded orcs get a Wisdom penalty, though standard half-orcs suffer no such thing because their human side's creativity dampens it. An orc-elf crossbreed, being a veritable sin against man and nature as far as most other races are concerned, probably ain't gonna be all that reasonable or right in the head. Especially with the orcish rage in their blood and elven outrage in their heads at being ugly.
Muzick removed the Wisdom penalty and increased their advantages a tad otherwise, removing the minor degree of balance it had with its combat advantages. They're not full-blooded elves so they don't need the full spot/listen/search bonuses of an elf, nor is there any justification for their Endure Elements ability even though it isn't all that great. Oh, and the -2 to Diplomacy and such should be listed as a racial penalty, not a racial bonus.
As it stands: no reason to play a half-orc or elf focused on combat classes instead of a thaellegoth; not as much combat effectiveness with the former choices and, really, if you're the party's meat shield/thrash-o-matic beatings-machine, you're never going to be half as smooth and silver-tongued as the party's bard, rogue, or sorcerer, who often have 'must be able to deal with or bamboozle/swindle people' as a veritable job requirement.
You're already not going to play this race if you want a cleric or paladin, or bard or sorcerer, unless you're playing that specifically for the challenge of a horribly disadvantaged combination, in which case you shouldn't be worrying that one race is a little less reasonable and charming. Really, with the way the race's background seems like it'd work out, the race probably wouldn't have any bards, clerics, or paladins anyway except for the rare individual that isn't emotionally scarred.
Half-orc members of these classes are much more feasible from an RP standpoint and a rules standpoint, though still disadvantaged, but not overly so, and humans are less unlike orcs than elves are. A half-orc can potentially still be admired somewhat by humans or orcs, depending on which side their appearance is closer to, as a burly and rugged man's man or a relatively clever and daylight-adapted orcish hunter/warrior/scout. An elf-orc hybrid is going to be reviled by both parent races, and likely develop a complex.
Elven immunity to sleep effects is not great, it's a rarely-useful benefit. The +2 against Enchantment effects is also of minor significance; the Iron Will feat will do that much and more, though at the cost of a feat, granted. If you're playing a thaellegoth barbarian/fighter though, it's no skin off your back. Sure they'd be kinda nice side-benefits, but that's all they'd be, not something you'd even notice you had, most of the time. The secret doors free Search check? Pffft. You're not likely to be the party's rogue (or at least not the main rogue), so you're not likely to have many Search ranks anyway; it's rarely, if ever, going to succeed. With your intelligence penalty and likelihood of being a savage warrior of some sort, you're not going to have spare skill points to throw around at a cross-class skill of infrequent usefulness (since you're not likely the main rogue, dealing with traps and hidden stuff; if you're a rogue at all, it's probably the stab-stuff-from-behind-and-sneak-away kind). The proficiencies? You won't need them as a fighter, barbarian, or ranger, and they're marginally beneficial if you go pure rogue (compared to all your many sneak attack damage dice, is that single D8 of a longsword really so great compared to a roguish D6 short sword?).
Darkvision like an orc or half-orc isn't all that awesome. It's a 2nd-level spell from the party's wizard if you really want that bit of advantage when scouting or sneaking at night or underground (but since many nocturnal or subterranean creatures in D&D have Darkvision themselves, this isn't so much of an advantage). There are even magic items that will give this ability at a relatively low level. Low-light vision is more useful sometimes and, even if having the party's cleric or wizard hold a torch or Light-imbued staff would give your party away to the enemy's night watchmen.....being the only member of the group with Darkvision will not help when the rest of the party is stumbling in the dark. The whole party would have to consist of members of this race or similar races (and dwarves ain't likely to go within even half a mile of a dirty, vile, orc-elf crossbreed, except to kill it). Darkvision is just a bit more useful than Low-Light Vision overall, but it's far from uber-ness.
Dominic Ladon
First Post
I'll agree with some logic, and as such, I feel that these would be reasonable adjustments.
+2 str +2 dex -2 int -2 wis -2 cha
+1 listen +1 search +1 spot +3 survival +3 intimidate
-3 diplomacy -3 gather information
Low Light Vision
Medium
30' Base Land Speed
Mixed Blood (orc and elven blood bonuses and penalties)
Endure Elements (supernatural ability) (with +3 to survival though, this could be questionable)
How does everyone think that this would look?
+2 str +2 dex -2 int -2 wis -2 cha
+1 listen +1 search +1 spot +3 survival +3 intimidate
-3 diplomacy -3 gather information
Low Light Vision
Medium
30' Base Land Speed
Mixed Blood (orc and elven blood bonuses and penalties)
Endure Elements (supernatural ability) (with +3 to survival though, this could be questionable)
How does everyone think that this would look?
ChimericDream
First Post
Here are the modified versions based on the feedback to this point. I bumped the listen, search, and spot bonuses to +3 to counteract the -1 from a lower wisdom. Since this race lives primarily in the wild, they would be aware of their surroundings, even if they were fairly dull-witted otherwise.
For the Orc / Drow version, it seems a bit weak for a +1 to me, and I was considering removing the Int penalty in addition to the Cha penalty. Since Drow have a bonus to Int, I figured this would balance out in terms of "genetics" or whatever. Would removing the Int penalty make this a more balanced LA +1?
For the Orc / Drow version, it seems a bit weak for a +1 to me, and I was considering removing the Int penalty in addition to the Cha penalty. Since Drow have a bonus to Int, I figured this would balance out in terms of "genetics" or whatever. Would removing the Int penalty make this a more balanced LA +1?
Last edited:
Nifft
Penguin Herder
muzick said:
Nice. I like this version a lot. Seems balanced and flavorful. I like the "nature magic" of the Elves and the "hardy outdoors barbarian" of the Orc merging into their endure elements ability.
muzick said:
I agree. Since Drow get a boost to Int and Cha, giving these guys a Wis penalty makes them a nice match for the Half-Orc, who is exactly the opposite in his penalty. Even with that, it still seems a bit weak.
How about:
+ Superior Darkvision (120 ft. range)
+ Spell-Like Ability: pick one on character creation, usable 1/day -- faerie fire, darkness, spider climb.
Cheers, -- N
ChimericDream
First Post
I like it. Final versions will be in the first post momentarily.
Similar Threads
D&D 5E (2014)
5.0 Retrospective. Races Most/Least Popular (anecdotes).
