"That spear would have skewered a wild boar!" : Should Heavy armor negate crits?

[Gorgoroth]

So, in D&D, crits are exciting, and big fun. They are the fireworks of D&D, for either team PC or team monster.

It reminds me of the clear critical that the cave troll had on Frodo in LOTR:

You should be dead. That spear would have skewered a wild boar!

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To me, in D&D parlance, it means the big troll rolled a natural 20, and there's no way a wild boar would have enough HP to survive a clear hit with max damage like that, let alone a little hobbit from the Shire. But! He may just have enough HP to survive a regular spear thrust, including the str-bonus of the troll and the base spear damage.

Here's my idea, from another thread:

in keeping with the KISS philosophy, heavy armor could negate crits, period. Regular damage only in plate.

This would be in line with the dwarf being immune to poison, be extremely simple, fast, effective against those big blows, scale effortlessly with monster damage die, etc etc etc

It's the most elegant way to make plate the ultimate armor, and would also mimick reality quite well. It's slow to kill someone in plate, taking a lot of hits to wear them down. And forget about chopping their head off in one fell swoop, you'll have to pin them down and take their helmet off for that (helpless condition could negate crit immunity)

Let's say splint mail gives two AC less than plate, but costs 1/20th of the price. So you get 10% more protection from plate, vs 20x the cost. Sounds like a bad deal, right? But when you say, buy this 1500gp shiny armor and you are now immune to critical hits, period...now THAT's something to get the people drooling over that lamborghini armor of yours.

What do you think, should heavy armor negate crits?

Someone asked me to make a poll based on this idea to see if it had any legs, and if it does, maybe it'll get the attention of the game designers for D&D Next. This is a response to the idea that us gamers cannot contribute good ideas to the Next iteration, or if we do, they should keep the base game simple and elegant:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-horizons-upcoming-edition-d-d/324789-plea-stop-over-complicating-base-system.html

I personally think only mundane platemail should , and mithril chainmail could be just as good, but not regular chainmail.

I always wanted DR rules in D&D core, but I think this idea is simpler and more fun too. The narrativist implications of mundane plate armor, giving you outright crit immunity. Too cool.

While wearing plate armor, you are essentially the D&D version of the Terminator:

Kyle Reese: Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

 

[Abstruse]

First I'm going to nitpick the Lord of the Rings reference because, well, I can't stop myself. I don't think the hit Frodo took was a critical hit, but just a very powerful blow from a very powerful monster. Also, the armor he was wearing was mithril chain, which is more or less a magic item.

The last bit of that leads into my argument...I would only want to see something like that in magic armor. Depending on how you approach the HP/AC abstraction, critical hits are basically that lucky shot that manage to find a gap in the armor or hits a vulnerable spot. That one-in-a-million (or rather, one-in-twenty) hit that manages to find a way to do much more damage. The only thing that should stop that is something beyond the norm - either magical armor or something pretty close to it, like mithril or adamantine.

This argument is also a far scaled down version of "armor as DR" which is a concept I hate personally and only want to see as an optional rules presentation. Not even optional like "Here we have flanking and here we have AoEs and here we have..", I mean optional like a sidebar buried in a book no one bought on a page that no one ever reads. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but armor as DR should be stripped from any other optional rules. It's far more realistic, but it doesn't just not "feel" D&D to me, it is directly opposed to the D&D feel IMO.

However, something like this would be great as a property of a specific rare metal armor or as a small enchantment on magic armor. It's actually a good enough idea to put in the core rules, which would give the purists something to love since it has a (if slightly off from my interpretation) classic literary roots in the genre as well as the power gamer and min/maxer crowd more math to play with. It also has a great way to flip it into a cursed item - an opponent can hit you with a critical on a 19 or 20 as the curse tends to "funnel" attacks to the more vulnerable parts of the armor rather than protect them better.

 

[jadrax]

I quite like the Idea of heavy Armour having a % chance to negate crits, like Helmets used to in 2nd (I think 2nd anyway).

But that's an extra die roll, and a % one at that. Dunno, I really like the idea, and its really simple, but on the other hand stopping crits entirely seems a bit anti-climatic.

One idea, if they return the idea of Crits doing Max Damage + a bonus Die based on class (which I quite liked) Heavy Armour could negate the bonus Die but still take the Max damage.

 

[Gorgoroth]

fair enough

"That one-in-a-million (or rather, one-in-twenty) hit that manages to find a way to do much more damage."

Crits happen on PCs quite often, actually with the AC system, the proportion of hits that land vs heavy armor users, that are also crits is HIGHER than someone in lesser armor. How does that make sense?

I agree the Mithril chain vest Frodo's wearing is magical or at least special / masterwork. But that's why I prefer mundane plate or magic/mithril chain or better are the minimum to gain crit immunity.

Also, in the movie, the entire action stopped, everyone ghasped, even the sound halted. Time stood still. You could model that as just a regular, every day hit by a troll...but why would you want to? Frodo was dodging him left and right for the entire battle because he's nimble, has AC bonuses vs large creatures, and magical mithril armor on! The only way the troll could hit him is on a crit, perhaps.

"and its really simple, but on the other hand stopping crits entirely seems a bit anti-climatic."

Anti-climactic to me is spending an insane amount of GP and effort and penalties to don and own platemail and you are still, routinely, "skewered like a wild boar". I actually find it quite exciting to be going up against a big enemy and the DM rolls a 20 and you're like, nu uh! lol. I paid the iron price for this armor, penalties in every other aspect of the game, I deserve something *good* to balance that. Heavy armor is not balanced in D&D, it's weak-sauce (IMO)

If the average monster only hits you, wearing platemail on an 14+, everytime you do get hit, it's like a 20% chance being waffled/watermeloned. That is NOT balanced to me. Heavy armor guys should get critted less often, proportionally to how often they take damage, not more.

I watched a movie about Henry the VIIIth the other day, and his magnificent jousting armor, and given D&D's rules for damage on a charging horse, with a lance...EVERY hit to me is a crit. If you are not wearing platemail on the receiving end of a hit, you are dead. Period. Like, no save..just dead.

To me, platemail means, you can't be critted. You still take incremental damage...but two horses charging at each other with +extra damage on a crit weapons like lances, that to me is the definition of "auto-crit". If platemail didn't negate that, poor Henry the VIII would have died many times over. In fact, a hit was determined by the lance shattering on impact.

Definite boar-skewering damage every time. vs plate guy? Not so much. Let's do another round, good chap!

 

[Abstruse]

"That one-in-a-million (or rather, one-in-twenty) hit that manages to find a way to do much more damage."

Crits happen on PCs quite often, actually with the AC system, the proportion of hits that land vs heavy armor users, that are also crits is HIGHER than someone in lesser armor. How does that make sense?

I agree the Mithril chain vest Frodo's wearing is magical or at least special / masterwork. But that's why I prefer mundane plate or magic/mithril chain or better are the minimum to gain crit immunity.

Also, in the movie, the entire action stopped, everyone ghasped, even the sound halted. Time stood still. You could model that as just a regular, every day hit by a troll...but why would you want to? Frodo was dodging him left and right for the entire battle because he's nimble, has AC bonuses vs large creatures, and magical mithril armor on! The only way the troll could hit him is on a crit, perhaps.

I can debate the films all day long...doing so would really derail the thread though. Keeping it in game terms, though, mithril has always been a special quality material and, excepting 4e, has always been something that was very special and very rare even if it wasn't enchanted. It's stated in the books (if not the movies) that the mithril shirt Bilbo got was worth more than the entire Shire. But...crap, I'm debating the books and movies again and not rules...

I agree that statistically speaking, someone in heavy armor is going to get hit with more criticals in proportion to total successful attacks due to their higher AC, but that also makes logical sense. Let's analyze historical armor (and no, I'm not going to get into the DR discussion...I hate it and no amount of convincing will make me like it, at least for D&D, so any discussion is a waste of everyone's time since it's an irrational opinion rather than a fact-based conclusion).

Heavy armor's protection is more complete than lighter armor. Scale mail and plate mail both protect in a similar fashion, by using overlapping metal plates of varying sizes with padding underneath. The overlapping plates mean that there are few places that are vulnerable to attack, as it's difficult to find an area the plates don't cover. There are a few more exposed areas, but it's not easy to get to them, like under the arms. The padding under the armor absorbs the impact from blows and spreads it over a larger area, thus causing less trauma and turning what would be a debilitating or even fatal blow into mere bruises and turning something that would be painful into a very minor annoyance. Because of this level or protection, most blows aren't going to land solidly enough to do a lot of actual damage (either from wounds or fatigue or whatever your personal view of what HP represent happens to be - also not getting into that debate).

However, the few hits that are strong or precise enough to do damage are more likely to do more damage. Because it's so difficult to get in between those plates or to punch through the armor itself, any specific wound is going to be more likely to be a seriously damaging one. The plate can completely turn away a glancing blow from an arrow, but a straight-on shot is going to punch straight through and possibly hit a vital organ. A thrust from a rapier or slice from a longsword is likely going to just bounce off the overlapping plates, but if it hits a weaker joint or slips in between those plates, it's going to be more likely to be a blow that seriously injures the armored combatant if not disable them by seriously injuring a joint.

Meanwhile, on an opponent wearing lighter armor like leather or one with more gaps like chain, it's far more likely that an attack is going to slip through that protection. Neither one spreads out impacts as well as the plate armor since they're not rigid enough to absorb the energy. Also, there are going to be more unprotected or lightly protected areas that are less critical that can be hit with a well-placed blow.

Heavy armor is going to have more protection in the shoulders and lower abdomen (where the armor doesn't have to be as flexible or can be made flexible enough with multiple layers showing few gaps) than lighter armor (which is going to have the same amount of protection). Those areas contain fewer vital organs or areas that would completely disable an opponent if struck.

That means that (assuming a +3 attack bonus and an AC of 18 on the heavily armored opponent and AC of 13 on the leather armor wearing one), that it makes perfect sense that more hits would be criticals on the former. The opponent in the lighter armor is going to take twice as many hits (50% of all attacks total), but since there are more gaps in the armor, it's less likely that any one successful hit is going to hit a vital area (10% of all hits). Meanwhile, the heavily armored opponent is going to shrug off attacks in more places and take fewer hits (25% of all attacks total), but it is far more likely that any successful attack is going to strike somewhere important (20% of all successful attacks).

TL;DR: Lighter armor has more places you can successfully attack, while heavier armor has fewer but they're more likely to be places you don't want to get stabbed.

 

[Blackwarder]

That's... A very interesting idea and it bears thinking on... I wouldn't want heavy armor benefit to be only crit negation though, I'll think about it before voting.

Warder

 

[Mengu]

I'd like to see monsters crit on occasion and be scary. So I'd lean toward no, though I'd be fine with a specific magical armor that can sometimes negate crits.

It really depends on the rest of the system. If hit points are low, monster crit damage is high, and we're observing too much swing due to crits, then sure, crit can be negated by heavy armor (or there could be a chance for it to be negated). If monsters are challenged because of PC defensive abilities, then the occasional crit to create some swing for the monsters is not a bad thing, and crit negation is not needed.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'd prefer getting rid of max dex bonuses to ac. That way heavier armor is better, but provides a penalty to movement, stealth, etc. Fair enough trade off if you ask me. As it stands now, a high dex guy is NEVER going to want heavy armor, even in a jousting tournament.

 

[Gorgoroth]

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A suit of platemail would also cost more than the entire Shire. I have a friend who makes platemail, it costs 10,000 $ minimum (more like 20k). And up to a whole year to make. Not to mention the costs of the shop...easily a half million in tools and forge implements. And that's now...imagine the costs in medieval times. In Henry the VIIIth time, and Queen Victoria's time, platemail was so expensive only dukes could afford it and would often go into bankruptcy afterwards. They cost as much as a castle!!

If we're talking about body coverage and having hole to stabbity stab through the plates, well I agree, perhaps normal plate doesn't cover the backs of the legs or the groin area, whereas field / full plate would. You should watch the shows about historical platemail. People would use maces against plate wearers because swords were just too ineffective, but that's more like DR 5 / bludgeoning than crit immunity.

I am starting to agree that DR vs all hits would be slow and agonizing to implement, but avoiding crits to me seems like a no-brainer, especially when you consider the elegance of giving dwarves outright poison immunity. This is along the same vein. If it's too good, make the platemail more expensive.

Scalemail or chainmail should not provide this benefit, I completely agree (unless magical or mithril or something). Too many openings to crit through.

 

[Gorgoroth]

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I'd prefer getting rid of max dex bonuses to ac. That way heavier armor is better, but provides a penalty to movement, stealth, etc. Fair enough trade off if you ask me. As it stands now, a high dex guy is NEVER going to want heavy armor, even in a jousting tournament.

Exactly. Dex is God in the AC system, as is. It needs to be fixed. But when ACs get too high, it would make plate users too good. And why would high dex rogues not wear plate in battle ? In 4e I loved plate on my paladin for flavour reasons only, since the rogue had the same AC by late heroic. Didn't seem balanced/fair to me at all. I spent all this gold and money and slowness and falling into traps and getting stuck...for what? To have practically the same AC...bleh.

I don't see how one can enable full dex bonus to platemail and keep the user hittable. No crits is a far more balanced / workable idea, mathematically, to avoid AC bloat. It just makes Dex even more of a God stat, but for fighters too. They'll just use finesse weapons all the time and use Dex for their attack stat, with Str secondary. This is wrong.