The 14th level PCs have slain their thousands, the 18th level PCs their ten thousands

[WayneLigon]

I'd love to run a campaign from scratch and keep track of exactly how many creatures the PCs kill.

In a long-running 2E game (we got to, hmm, 9-10th, I think), we had a guy do that. He eventually filled an entire sheet of notebook paper front and back with tiny neat writing; all totalled it was in the low thousands, I think. I'll see if he still has it.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

So I guess, in a rather round-about way, what I'm wondering about is this: should the game be more explicit about what PCs at each range of levels are likely to be able to do? Should certain types of challenges have a "trivially easy to overcome by a party of level X (or a level X [class])", e.g. once you have a 5th level cleric in a standard four-person party, starvation is almost never a problem.

YES. By all friggin means yes. I know DM's love the scrabbling dirt farmer campaigns, but as far as I'm concerned, past a certain point, getting over a flooding river, dying of disease, worrying about food and lodging, etc fade into the background as meaningless. It gives a sense of progression to no longer even have to roll to deal with certain issues.

Are first level warriors a challenge from 1-20? Then why should a 10 foot pit be? Its basically a 1st level hazard.

I still throw low CR challenges at my party just to give them a thrill now and then.

As far as body counts go... I really wouldnt want to be in a room with a high level PC. Moxst of their humanity (or elfanity) would have been drummed out by the umpteenth time they had melted a gaggle of sentient being's faces off with fireballs.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I'd love to run a campaign from scratch and keep track of exactly how many creatures the PCs kill.

I've done it from ~level 5 to level 20. I didn't have my Palm Pilot when I started the game but now it's my life blood, my precious.

[sblock]
critter cr xp
beetle 4 1200
spiders 2x2 1200
draconian ---
dragon ---
reach thordheim
shield guardian 6 2400
violet fungus 3x3 2400
belkar 6 2400
dark mantles 6x1 2400
gargoyle 4 1200
phantom fungus 4 1200
grick 4 1200
cube 3 800
leave thordheim

ogre scouts
H'orst =boy

digester 6 2400
stirges 8x1/2 1600
bear 4 1200

ettercaps 3x4 3600
800gp, 750lbs of Si (2,500gp)
potions CLW, Ghoul Touch,Levitate

1 ettercap & 4 3600
6 Huge spider 6x4 7200
gems 9gp, 9gp, 500gp, 900gp
1 acid, 4 antitoxIn

puma(lion) 3 800
----------
- . 10,000 xp ea.

2x assassin vine 2x3 1500

5th level (10,000xp)

troll 5 1500 (200)

palfin -4000=6000+200=6200


small graveyard
ghoul wolves(1)x6+ghast (3)=
7 3000

cheetah x2 4 1100

trail markings -glyphs

minotaur/F:4 8 4500
power attack, great endurance, combat reflexes, ambidex, 2-weapon, shield xpert
74hp +0init 30ft AC 18 (+4 chain, +5 nat, -1 size). -
F: R: W:
+9/+4 greataxe 2d8+4
+9 lg shield d6+2 (sub)
+8 gore d8+2

ring of shield other (1 of 2)
brooch of shielding (43 hp)

3 hellhounds 5 3x2 1500

6 krenshar 5 6x1 1800

brigands 8 4250
--------------
(12,500xp)
cr 5 booth 1500
5xcr 5 sales 7500
0.5xcr7 1500=10500/7.5=1400


cr4 thief 1250
skill=10 vs spot +2 comp
ac 13 dagger +3/+5

2 cr4 thieves 2500


Ulort (CR9) 6000/8.5=700(600)
notices grygak's proto-axe
watches for a while
zanef's "agents" notice & tell burne
to get all together.
shapeshifts into orc & attacks

ogre magi/ranger 2/sorceror 2=9
s=21 d=17 c=16 i=12 w=10 cha=17
f: +10 r : +4 w: +4 hp: 60
init+7
AC +3dex+5nat-1size+4rmor=21
mithral chain shirt 10% spell fail
+11/+6 (+9/+9/+4) d8+5/d6+2
MW Lsword, Ssword, comp Lbow+3
wand clwx37 (395gp)
like=@will= darkness & invis
i/day=charm,polymorph self, sleep REGEN 2/fire & acid
spells(6/5)=shield, identify, colorspray?
weapons+armor=2700/1350gp
cash=325gp gems=200gp

------- ------- -------15,000xp 6th

6x demon +1 imp=cr 5 (250)

Lord Geist Winterhaven
CR5 250

------- ------- -------(18,025xp)
module
traps 2xcr4 2000/6=333
no moundcr8 4500/0=0

vines cr2
9x2 9000/6=1500

party @ blevins 500 ------- ------- -------module=2,333 (20,358xp)

gibbering mouther cr6 1800/6=300
shale cr6 1800/6=300
boars 4x450 1800/6=300
------- ------- -------(21,258xp)
7th level

gray render =550
6x hippogrif 2364/6=394
archerai cr6 1400/6=233
shield guardian 3150/6=525
22,960

tower-traps & taflin =700
23,660

ankheg 4x3=2100/6=350
athac 2x7=4200/6=700
panther . 4=700/6=116
dragon/draconian 2x7=4200/6=700
inc 1866
25, 526
next level 28k-30k=2500-4500

behir 11hd 10=6300/6=1050
8d6breathe 115hp&12 6hd cr6

eoch & others 700
geist & horst 700 trolls 3x5=8 3150/7=450
28,426
town 300
thugs 500
bandits (A) 4900/7=700
30,000
paper

osyluth 6x9 10800/7= 1500
mounds 6x3 3600/7= 500
leshy 6x2 2400/7= 300
32300


3 shamblers 6x3 3600/7= 500
18 skeletons 18x.5 3 cr5=900
6 lg sk horses,4 zombies,
2 imp cr7 1800/7
24 zombies cr9 3600/7

33,935

12 lemure(5) osyluth(6)=7 257
8 wights(9) 504
6 ghast (8) 380
6 zombie(5) 128
1 servant(8) 380
1450
35,385

6 ghasts 380
2 servants 10 - 760
tamarat 12 1520
8 servants 3040
5600 40,985


13 osyluths 750x13 9650
20 sk 500
20 zombies 500
bunch of lemure 500ish
8 wight 4000
14650/8 =1830
43,300

10th level winter 47,000

bulette cr12 6000
formian warrior 18x3 4500
formian myrmach 10 4500
justpc+horst 15000/7=2150

karnites
tendriculous cr14
shambloids cr4x6
thornmen 24x5
assassin vine 4x8

town xp
57,000

11th level

aranea cr7x6 4950

worg cr2x6 825
lancers cr6x6 3300
archers cr6x4 2200
&nondruid animals 11,275/7 1610
58,610

dire bufallo 7*8 10,500
gazelle 12 6000
16500/7 = 2368
. 60,100

gargoyles

critters
arrowhawks 5750
giants 2xcr12 6000

manticores cr5x2 1026
all animals 12775/7 1825
61,925

gargoyles cr10 1500
manticores cr10 1500
umberhulks
traps 5x cr5 750
flesh golems 3200
mimics 2000
chimera 1500
68,000
11th

dragon
town 1000
leshy
eagles 300
yrthak 9 1250
hydra cr14 7200
9750/7 =1400

displacer cr 9 1200/7= 170

myreth 69,570

++centipede cr12 3600
hydra cr14 7200

shocker lizard colony ~cr11
6 x2 600
2 x3 300
1x4 900
1x6 450

mudmaw 700
assasin vine 300
14000/6 =2,335
+social 72,000
78k 12th

beholder cr13 6600
o'oroth cr11 3300
draconian social 1500
dragons 40000
51400/6=8500
80,500
8 trolls 8hd cr6 ea cr12 82,100
?=76 180

13th level
blevins gap
solanthus Fall Fair, shield g.
Palanthus Inductions-sassanovar
500ea

4 stone giants cr12 2600/6 430ea
83,030

ethereal marauder cr9 975

digester cr9 975
1950/6= 325ea
4 brown bears (@cr7)
4 wolves(@cr4)
1 wolverine (@cr5) =cr12=2,600
2600/6=430ea
4 ghoul (@cr1)
20 wight (@cr3)=cr11 1,950
325ea
hell wyrm cr16 11700
vampire cr13 3900
15600/6=2600ea
86,100

blue slaad cr14 5850
dinosaur cr14 5850
bulette cr12 2600
14100/6=2250
88,350
goblins cr6 x28 325x28=5850
dire elephant cr13 30hd 3900
dirt tentacles cr13 3900
13650/6= 2275
90625
91k-14th

raiders looters
raiders elite 95,000

pirates 37250/7 =5,300

frost giants 6xcr13 16800
winter wolves 12x~2000
18800/7=2700
103,000

city, investments, wall, sermon 1000
dragons 1000 105,000

ankheg queen cr12 ~cr13
4x ankheg princesses =cr11
ankheg mites ~0xp
4x canonfirs cr12~cr14x4=cr18
tendriculous cr12
spells cr14
~cr19=25,200/7=3600
108,600
105k=15th

negotiations/parley cr16~6000xp

corpse gatherer cr19x3 54000
=60000/7=8500
. 117,300

Thanoi=cr15ish =4500/7=640
4x ice elementals cr15 =
4500ea x4 / 15 = 1200xp
8x frost giant mummies cr14
=3200ea x8 /15 = 1680xp
120,800xp

120k-16th
remorhaz 4x10 =3300
cr21 dragon
128,000xp
note -combat #90 since 4th lvl

deathbringer cr17 7200
corpse jelly cr19 14400
rav ghoul cr19 14400
elder air elemental cr11 900
elder earth elemental cr11 900
ghaele 13 1600
gelugon 13 1600
vrock 13 1600
42600/8=5510

tower & abyss-gifts 123,510

sylvanesti
blaze 16 4800
squid 16 4800
9600/7=1370
124,880

overland travel
owlbear 15 3200
Karel 10 600
ltouc/vrock 16 4800
ltouc/demons 19 14400 anhkill 21 25600
fiendish occwort 19200
orclingsx12 10800
purple worms cr17 6400
85,000/7=12,140
137,020

tathar 20 19200
nightshade20 19200
38400/7=5,480
142,500
lost track of xp 136k 17th

tempest cr16x3 10200
roc cr18 7650
dragon cr18 7650
25500/7=3,640
146,140

ruffians cr 19 10200

spell weaver cr19 10200
darktentacles cr19 10200
spell guant cr19 10200
40800/7=5630
151750
153k 18th
Ashura cr19 7200/7=1050
152,780

Ravenous Ghouls
cr19x2 7200x2=14400
cr17x1 3600
cr1 x60 -
=18000/7=2570
155,250

[bloodmoon]
15 16 17 18 19 20
1800 2700 3600 5400 7200 10800
Cornugon 15------- 18 1800
marileth 16-- 17/ 2700
nalfeshnee 14 - / 1350
yagnolothx2 15 1800
haamatulax2 11 900
=8350/7=1200xp
156,450

Tamarat's summons cr18 5400
medusa-grimlock
assassins cr20 -cr15x6 10,800
imp. Champs cr18x7 37,800
54,000/7=7700

social encounters 1000ea
cr16x7 18,900/7 =2700 167,800
Publican's day -gael 300 ea
belial cr23 32,400/8=4,000

[Saelek] cr17 3600/8=450
19th (excl thrac) 173k

[Saelek] cr16(flee) 1900
brood keeper cr20 8550
swarm cr12x3 700x3
[Saelek] cr16(flee) 1900
devastation giant 26hd->34hd
(geriviar) - cr21 10800

[Saelek] -antimagic field 3rnds
cr23 21600
=46850/8=5,850
178,850XP

[goblin horde]
cr3x25 550
cr5x10 440
cr16x6 11400
cr17x2 5700=18090/8=2310
horde 2
cr16x2 7600
cr19x2 10400
18000/8=2250
182,410XP

[Underworld]
kelarnan cr 22 17100
Tamarat -cr20 8550
25600/8=3200
185,610XP

dark fomori cr16 x4 1900x4
wodan cr15x2 1400x2
shedim 8hd->24hd cr16x2 1900x2
=14,200/8=1,750

silestren cr23 20800/8=2,600
189,960XP
~20th
social
Vale
Chancellor
Ogres
Dinner w/a Duke
Toman & dilith
Fair & entertaining
Archaissus & Wurm
Dinner w/Soth
Elana &Alkeran
3000/8=375
190,335XP

[Chersh lair] cr23
18000/8 = 2,250

Qualinost cr23
18000/8= 2,250

Tamarat -simula cr20
6000 /8 = 750
Edicts cr26
48000/8=6,000

201,585XP

Vampires cr17x5 =10375/9=1153


[Tamire]
frost blight cr17
shatterghouls (dustwight) cr20
chief negotioations cr15
9000/9=1000

203,738XP

[Kotept Adirath] cr29
144,000/8=18,000

[/sblock]

I've got 219 entries, with 1-3 entries per encounter. Most entries are for groups, some of which were as large as fifty (goblin archers), but saying there were 5 creatures/entry is reasonable. that would give us about 1100 creatures defeated. The greatest number are goblins, followed by bandits and undead. Abherrations, fiends, and the like are much lower down the list.

 

[frankthedm]

It occured to me that given the standard assumptions of gear and so on, high-level D&D PCs will eventually be able to perform such superheroic stunts. However, such a high level of competence may come as a nasty surprise for a DM who fails to realize how much more capable the PCs have become after gaining just a few levels.

What bugs me more is when ALL the foes seem to become competent as the party levels up. I have no quams when there are leveled mooks mixed into hordes of schlubs, but when every fragging orc has 5 character levels under his belt, that bug me a ton since those 5 level five orcs could have been 50 normal orcs.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think that keeping track of encounter kills is terribly meaningful, since at high levels even an army of 1st-level warriors will be a negligible encounter (i.e. one that time is not spent on but that happens in continuity.) An epic character should be expected to have routed armies without anything particularly notable happening (unless the world the campaign is set in is much higher power than normal.)

 

[jasin]

What bugs me more is when ALL the foes seem to become competent as the party levels up. I have no quams when there are leveled mooks mixed into hordes of schlubs, but when every fragging orc has 5 character levels under his belt, that bug me a ton since those 5 level five orcs could have been 50 normal orcs.

There are times when five 5th-level orcs make more sense, but yes, I think I know what you mean: if the average orc horde member is War1, with Bbn4 berserker shock troops and Clr5 shamans when you're 2nd level, they should still be like that when you're 10th. By that time, you should be fighting the Bbn7/Ftr4 chieftain and his berserker and shaman bodyguard, but those should be portrayed as such, rather than as average horde members upgraded by fiat to keep up with the party.

 

[Arnwyn]

So I guess, in a rather round-about way, what I'm wondering about is this: should the game be more explicit about what PCs at each range of levels are likely to be able to do? Should certain types of challenges have a "trivially easy to overcome by a party of level X (or a level X [class])", e.g. once you have a 5th level cleric in a standard four-person party, starvation is almost never a problem.

What do you think?

Heck, yeah. Anything that helps manage the DM's expectations - clearly and explicitly - can only be a good thing.