D&D (2024) The 2024 Core D&D Rulebooks Are Coming In May

21st May 2024 is the official release date! Update--WotC has taken down the promo image and replaced it with one without a release date. See more here.

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21st May 2024 is the official release date!

Update--WotC has taken down the promo image and replaced it with one without a release date. See more here.
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
At low and mid level it didn't double anything. It boosted you, but you used one of your few 3rd level slots just casting it. Then if you cast two spells for even two more rounds you were out of just about everything good and were useless in every other combat you might have before you rested. And that's if 100% of your spells were combat and didn't mix combat and utility like you had to in 3e. 3e required you to pick the exact spells you had memorized. None of this easy street 5e stuff where you could use slots wherever you liked among memorized spells.
Do you not see the irony of defending 3.0's most broken spells when back in the day 3.5 players actually cited these kind of insane spells as reasons for switching to 3.5 where the spells were better balanced?

I even seem to remember a popular d&d webcomic that poked at the topic for a couple releases involving a transplant PC who joined the group without being converted.
 

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Horwath

Legend
At low and mid level it didn't double anything. It boosted you, but you used one of your few 3rd level slots just casting it. Then if you cast two spells for even two more rounds you were out of just about everything good and were useless in every other combat you might have before you rested. And that's if 100% of your spells were combat and didn't mix combat and utility like you had to in 3e. 3e required you to pick the exact spells you had memorized. None of this easy street 5e stuff where you could use slots wherever you liked among memorized spells.
it does not matter how much spells slots you have. It matters that you deliver them in half the rounds.
that halves the time that enemies can bash you on the head.

if an encounter requires you to spend 10 spell slots of various levels, you are going to be in much better condition if you spend those 10 slots in 5 rounds instead of 10.

also you more or less double the DPS of melee characters if you cast this on them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Do you not see the irony of defending 3.0's most broken spells when back in the day 3.5 players actually cited these kind of insane spells as reasons for switching to 3.5 where the spells were better balanced?
Back in the day I was surprised that they made 3.5 because nothing we encountered warranted such a change. I was super annoyed at having to buy the PHB and MM again(because so many DMs switched over). And I never bought the 3.5 DMG. I still don't own one.

Is the 3.0 haste more powerful than the 3.5 haste? Yes. Absolutely. Is it broken? Not inherently it isn't, because broken is subjective when it comes to power level of spells.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
it does not matter how much spells slots you have. It matters that you deliver them in half the rounds.
that halves the time that enemies can bash you on the head.
So it doesn't matter that you are out of combat spells and only have utility spells, because you can now deliver those utility spells in half the rounds? And that somehow equates to halving the time that enemies can bash you on the head?

Once again, in 3e you needed to specify how many of your few third level slots were fireball and how many were fly and how many were dispel magic and how many were haste. Except you couldn't get that many and you needed your utility spells. The same applied to 2nd level and invisibility, etc.

The number of combat spells you had was a best half of your slots, which meant that if you used haste in 1 combat that lasted 3 rounds, you pretty much had no more combat spells for any other encounter. AND you didn't cast any defensive spells, which meant your low hit points had a good chance of getting you knocked out before 3 rounds in any case.
if an encounter requires you to spend 10 spell slots of various levels, you are going to be in much better condition if you spend those 10 slots in 5 rounds instead of 10.
You didn't have 10 slots to spend until you were like 11th level, because half of your slots were defensive and utility spells. 11th level, and 90% of tables never even made it to 10.
 
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Horwath

Legend
You didn't have 10 slots to spend until you were like 11th level, because half of your slots were defensive and utility spells. 11th level, and 90% of tables never even made it to 10.
ok...

so you started with 18 for int as you can pointbuy that, and +2 in from sun elf and for FR there is Spellcasting prodigy.
5th level, you can afford +2 ability item. +1 from 4th level and you are on 23 Int(25 for spells). that is +7 mod
that gives you 2 extra spell slots for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells
from base: 3,2,1, +2 per spell level from int, +1 per spell level for specialized wizard

total of:
6 1st level spell slots
5 2nd level spell slots
4 3rd level spell slots

that is 15 spell slots at 5th level.

and all your utility is from scrolls not memorized spells.


moving this design to 6th level sorcerer it would be
8/7/5 spell slots. total of 20 at 6th level. (wizard would be 6/6/5 at 6th level, total of 17spell slots.)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
ok...

so you started with 18 for int as you can pointbuy that, and +2 in from sun elf and for FR there is Spellcasting prodigy.
5th level, you can afford +2 ability item. +1 from 4th level and you are on 23 Int(25 for spells). that is +7 mod
that gives you 2 extra spell slots for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells
from base: 3,2,1, +2 per spell level from int, +1 per spell level for specialized wizard

total of:
6 1st level spell slots
5 2nd level spell slots
4 3rd level spell slots

that is 15 spell slots at 5th level.

and all your utility is from scrolls not memorized spells.


moving this design to 6th level sorcerer it would be
8/7/5 spell slots. total of 20 at 6th level. (wizard would be 6/6/5 at 6th level, total of 17spell slots.)
Lots of assumption there. I encountered only 1 DM who allowed purchase of any item you wanted for the first. So the +2 item cannot be assumed. Second, you cannot assume point buy. Rolling was the default method, so the 18 cannot be assumed. Third, specialist cannot be assumed in a general discussion like this. Many people didn't like giving up two entire schools. So you've just lost a ton of slots that you are white rooming into existence. Fourth, you can't assume time and money to scribe scrolls. Most campaigns I played in didn't have a lot of down time to do them. Even when you did, the wizard often didn't want to sit around scribing scrolls while the rest of the party engaged in roleplay and moving the plot/story forward. It sucks to sit out while things happen.

Even with that white room, you still don't have 15 slots. You only have 7 or 8, because any wizard who didn't use a lot of his slots(at least half) on utility and defense, was a piss poor wizard. He would end up dead or unconscious a lot and wouldn't have the utility that 3e wizards were best known for. It's doubly stupid to put all of your utility into flammable items. Fire spells and abilities weren't weak sauce like 5e, and were pretty common. Especially at the levels where you had money and XP to burn(heh). They burned stuff you didn't want burned.
 
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So new version in 2024...guess we will see if the changes are worth it. I started playing 5e with some friends not too long ago so not sure if our GM will bother to switch.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Back in the day I was surprised that they made 3.5 because nothing we encountered warranted such a change. I was super annoyed at having to buy the PHB and MM again(because so many DMs switched over). And I never bought the 3.5 DMG. I still don't own one.

Is the 3.0 haste more powerful than the 3.5 haste? Yes. Absolutely. Is it broken? Not inherently it isn't, because broken is subjective when it comes to power level of spells.
It was a cash-grab. I remember feeling at the time that it was a real letdown that they didn't fix MORE of what I felt were the problems with 3e, and that barring that, they shouldn't have bothered.

They actually really shouldn't have. They should have continued to observe the edition for at least another three years, and then put out a 4e that looked more like what would be Pathfinder.

It's another reason why you won't find me championing a Point-Five. The only time it was ever done in the history of D&D was a bad idea. Not to say that 3.5 wasn't a "fine" D&D to play - it was okay. But from a business perspective, it should never have happened.
 



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