Spelljammer The 2e Setting Explosion: Spelljammer v. Athas, and the Multiverse as Single Settting (Part 3)

[Urriak Uruk]

I haven't read this whole post yet (and I will), but I will say that I'm a little frustrated with Disclaimer 2.

I know you say you don't want to have an argument or being "proven right," but a good section of your post is opinion rather than fact. So it's perfectly fine for someone to challenge your suppositions.

Also I don't think anyone in either posts has argued against you that one way is better than the other (even though you say yourself you prefer the Gygaxian multiverse), I think people do disagree that the distinction between the Gygaxian multiverse and the 5E multiverse is that large, or even matters much.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Disclaimer 2: I am not interested in arguing or being "right." More in observing the historical changes and seeing what they might mean. I'm not trying to convert anyone to running their own games in any particular way. Talking the history of the multiverse is fun, arguing about what is better is not (for me, you're welcome to whatever you want to say!).

Ok, actually read the full post! Full disclosure, I'm ignoring Disclaimer 2. I know you're not trying to convert anyone, but after reading what you think about "seeing what they might mean," I kind of disagree with your leaps so I'm going to point them out. I'm not going to say what is better or not, but I do disagree with what you seem to think the design changes actually mean.

Firstly, I don't know how the Manual of the Planes stops players from traveling from world to world. It's clearly not true, as you have a bunch of characters cross-pollinating within both Spelljammer and Ravenloft from various settings.

A. Every world must be a D&D-type fantasy world. While there are allowances for space hippos, there is no allowance to spelljam to Gamma World.
B. There can be no variations in rules. Prior to 2e, many gamers were quite used to going back and forth between 1e and BECMI (at the very least, they would play the modules interchangeably). You could not, however, travel to the the well-known world of Mystara.

Is there an actual source for these assumptions? I haven't seen anything that states "D&D are fantasy only, you can't sci-fi!" If not this is a big assumption.

Two years later, Dark Sun (Athas) revealed that this change in direction was permanent. Athas did not want your cross-pollination with other worlds. "No creatures from the SPELLAMMER Monstrous Compendiums live on Athas." Athas is treated as cut off, separate, away from the deities that populate other planes. It is treated as cut off. It is remarkable, yet unsurprising, that the very first edition post-Spelljammer both declines to use Spelljammer and also adopts a cribbed cosmology; this is something that would repeat time and again moving forward.

To be clear, the whole premise of Dark Sun (that it is a post-apocalyptic wasteland) kind of breaks down if people can just up-and-leave. It's also not even true; there are actual Dark Sun modules where the Githyanki invade Athas, showing that Dark Sun isn't as cut-off as people first assume.

I'll be honest here, I am so very very confused by this whole series of posts. The changes you're saying happened did indeed happen, but they haven't invalidated any aspect of Gygaxian portals and multiversal concepts. It just adds some structure to explain how those concepts are possible.

5E goes out of its way to embrace several of the Gygaxian elements you love. Dungeon of the Made Mage pulls elements from other settings into its nutty expanse of material, including Spelljammer. Characters like Acererak from Greyhawk and even Critical Role characters have appeared in Forgotten Realms content. They even released the Lost Laboratory of Kwalish which is a direct call-out to Expedition of the Barrier Peaks.

I love the amount of research you're doing and also love the nostalgia of TSR (which I share), but I do disagree that the material of today somehow invalidates it... it's all still very possible, and still being sprinkled throughout new material.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

There was no sci-fi crossovers after Gygax left, no siree

(Oh, and it also has ways to crossover a D&D and Alternity campaign. Imagine that).

 

[atanakar]

There was no sci-fi crossovers after Gygax left, no siree

View attachment 122583

(Oh, and it also has ways to crossover a D&D and Alternity campaign. Imagine that).

WOW!

Quote : Shannon Appelcline
«Future History. A different take on monstrous robot appears on the cover of Dragon #258 (April 1999). That links to "Mage vs Machine", an article by Bruce R. Cordell that introduces the science fantasy sheen. They return in "Revenge of the Sheens" in Dragon #270 (April 2000). Though these monsters are different than the Overseer technology of Tale of the Comet, a tie-in is suggested: "At least two points of origin for machine life cysts are currently known, the Barrier Peaks and the Rael cysts."

Meanwhile, in Dungeon #126 (September 2005), Wolfgang Baur presents "The Clockwork Fortress", with suggested links to the sheen. It's also linked to the classic City of Gods from Blackmoor, proving that it's science fantasy all the way down.»

 

[Alzrius]

B. There can be no variations in rules. Prior to 2e, many gamers were quite used to going back and forth between 1e and BECMI (at the very least, they would play the modules interchangeably). You could not, however, travel to the the well-known world of Mystara.

I feel like there's a level of nuance that's being lost here. While the planar arrangement in AD&D was certainly different from the planar arrangement for BECMI (as described in the Immortals Set (1986), as I recall), it was worth noting that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (1991) had an appendix that talked about conversion between BECMI and AD&D 2E. It even mentioned that it was "convenient" to assume that the two games took place in separate realities, and that moving characters between them was a "reality shift."

That term suggests (though it's not definitive) that the idea came, at least in part, from Bruce Heard's "Up, Away, and Beyond" article in Dragon magazine #160 (August, 1990), which talked about crossing over between D&D settings in more detail.

Please note the use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I feel like there's a level of nuance that's being lost here. While the planar arrangement in AD&D was certainly different from the planar arrangement for BECMI (as described in the Immortals Set (1986), as I recall), it was worth noting that the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (1991) had an appendix that talked about conversion between BECMI and AD&D 2E. It even mentioned that it was "convenient" to assume that the two games took place in separate realities, and that moving characters between them was a "reality shift."

That term suggests (though it's not definitive) that the idea came, at least in part, from Bruce Heard's "Up, Away, and Beyond" article in Dragon magazine #160 (August, 1990), which talked about crossing over between D&D settings in more detail.

Please note the use of affiliate links in this post.

Well Gygax and his players didn't cross between various D&D editions, since Gygax never really played 1st edition. He played his own OD&D/1E hybrid.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

There was no sci-fi crossovers after Gygax left, no siree

View attachment 122583

(Oh, and it also has ways to crossover a D&D and Alternity campaign. Imagine that).

I'm reading the preview of this product on the DMsguild, and damn it looks fun!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Though frankly I ignored it, my group in Greyhawk had a rather memorable encounter with Athasian halflings shortly after they were introduced.

There are Athasian halfings in Baldur's Gate 2 as well, so it wasn't only you.

 

[3catcircus]

There is so much that is wrong with this thread - and it feels so right...

Other than Planescape which I feel was a terrible way to open up the planes to high level adventures (if you have to be high level to travel there, why can the local version in Sigil not have to be?), the ability to travel amongst multiple worlds and locales opens up the ability to have multiple campaigns in play at once, give the primary DM a break, and do one-shots on a whim.

The only problem is dealing with whiners who demand their "player agency" at the expense of a good campaign.

 

[David Howery]

I'd always thought the DS world was 'closed off' due to the really weird magic system it had there... doesn't really fit in well with the others. That said, it didn't stop the Ravenloft demiplane from entering it and stealing the population of a city to make another Island there...