The 2nd best fighter...

[wysiwyg]

I'm having this prolonged debate with my GM and I'd like some help. The argument is whether the fighter can have an equally good DEX build (having DEX as a primary stat & going with TWF) as the traditional STR based fighter (power attacking, cleaving, etc.)

If you are playing a fighter in your campaign, of either builds, and you think he's a killer, than I'd like to see him/her. Or even better, what's the best build you can come up with for either. Let's set some creation rules:

Applies to both builds:
1. Exclusive fighter class, level 10.
2. Human.
3. Pathfinder core rules and feats only.
4. 25 point build. No stat lower than 10.
5. They should have the same CON stat.
6. Starting wealth: 62,000 gp.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why's it have to be a TWF? An archer is quite literally a "Dex build" and the pathfinder fighter is one of the best archers in the game. And why does it have to be human? I hate making human builds, so bland...

EDIT: Preliminary archer build
I will say archer in core Pathfinder is suicidal because Step Up is way too easy to obtain and is stupidly brokenly overpowered. With APG, they at least made a feat band-aid to keep archery viable, but in core...this build is viable for a normal party scenario where he can be kept out of melee generally, but if you're planning some sort of gladiatorial 1-on-1 duel thingy, archery's pointless.

Human Fighter 10
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
(level 1 before racial bonus: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10)

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
1 Rapid Shot
2 Deadly Aim
3 Weapon Focus
4 Weapon Specialization
5 Nimble Moves
6 Manyshot
7 Critical Focus
8 Greater Weapon Focus
9 Improved Critical
10 Dodge

Weapon Training: Bows +2, some melee weapon +1

 

[Chronologist]

I agree with StreamOfTheSky, archery is a completely viable dex-based fighter style. For equipment, I'd recommend investing in dex-boosting magical items, a magic bow, and heavy mithral armor. If you allow custom magical items using the core rules, you can equip your character with fun and useful magical effects, like Haste for a couple of rounds per day, and short range teleport spells usable at will. I's also invest in magic that makes you hard to hit, as well as items that boost your CMB (remember, you're one disarm away from useless).

One of the best things about archer builds is having many arrows with different magical properties and damage types. Having many kinds of Bane arrows on hand, and being able to switch from a +1 Holy Undad Bane bludgeoning arrow (for all your skeletal needs) to a +1 Icy Burst cold iron arrow (for taking out those pesky fire demons) makes the archer hands-down the most versatile, adaptable, and outright powerful martial builds available.

If you start going into 3.5 material and pathfinder sourcebooks, there are many other interesting, useful, and powerful items and character options you can explore, not the least being the Archer variant for the fighter in the Advanced Player's Guide.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a shame the level is 10. Improved Precise Shot and the one to ignore 5 points of DR are level 11 and 12 feats respectively, and huge boosts for the fighter archer.

As for the archer variant (and crossbow variant) in the APG...I don't like them. If you could "opt out" of various class features, maybe. But as it stands, the two archetypes who most want a high dex get absolutely none of the armor trainings? Sorry, that's just too painful to lose, and the replacement abilities aren't even good. At very high levels the builds start giving genuinely good stuff, but unless I was starting there, I'd probably rather just play a Mobile Fighter with Nimble Moves feat, so he can always 5 ft step. Mobile Fighter lets you apply the "weapon training" bonus on any weapon, so long as you move 5 ft or more first, so it lets you keep up on damage, still get armor training 2, and not completely suck at melee, either. Also...by RAW you still get Weapon Training 2, 3, and 4, so Mobile Fighter actually ends up with more damage than n Archer or Crossbow Fighter anyway. But, if you think giving that up for the ability to bull rush someone 5 ft with your arrow is worth it, be my guest.

 

[Chronologist]

I know that the archer variant isn't very strong, I like very few of the Fighter variants personally. I was just saying it was an option he could take that could fit with the concept of a high-Dex archer fighter.

Still, you have to admit that with all those different kinds of arrows you can have, archers at least excel at versatility. Higher damage means nothing if you're facing down an extra DR 15/- because you don't have a cold iron weapon.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm having this prolonged debate with my GM and I'd like some help. The argument is whether the fighter can have an equally good DEX build (having DEX as a primary stat & going with TWF) as the traditional STR based fighter (power attacking, cleaving, etc.)

Well, it would really depend on what you're fighting, wouldn't it? Also, most Dex builds are going to have a decent Str, and vice versa.

Dexter the Mighty
Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: (B) Quick Draw, (B) Two-Weapon Fighting, (B) Double Slice, (B) Two-Weapon Defense, (B) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (B) Improved Critical (shortsword), Weapon Focus (shortsword), Weapon Specialization (shortsword), Weapon Finesse, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses.
Special qualities: Weapon training (blades +2, bows +1), bravery +3, armor training 2

Gear 62,000
belt of physical might (+2 Str, +2 dex) (16000)
+1 shocking shortsword (1835x)
+1 flaming shortsword (1835x)
mithril chain shirt +2 (5100)
other stuff

Full attack:
+1 shocking shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+8/17-20 plus 1d6 fire) and +1 flaming shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+8/17-20 plus 1d6 electricity)

which works out to about 46-48 points of damage plus 10-11 points of energy damage, per round.

AC is at least 23 (+6 armor, +6 dex, +1 shield). After using shattering defenses, can probably fight defensively against many foes for -4 to hit but +3 to AC.

 

[Chronologist]

Why use a mithral chain shirt? With the Armor Training ability, you should be able to wear something heavier, with a better bonus.

Rather than Two-Weapon Defense, why not buy a wand of Shield? Or, better yet, a magical item that continuously gives the benefit of the Shield spell. As an added bonus, you never have to worry about Magic Missiles.

I have to admit, I love the name Dexter. Do you mind if I use that for my next archer character?

 

[pawsplay]

Why use a mithral chain shirt? With the Armor Training ability, you should be able to wear something heavier, with a better bonus.

Old habits die hard. Make that a mithril breastplate.

Rather than Two-Weapon Defense, why not buy a wand of Shield?

Why not do both? But the basic reason is that I tend to avoid relying on shield. Shield has a duration in minutes. It is an obvious spell effect, which means it will often be dispelled. It requires carrying around a wand and exposing the wand, as well.

Or, better yet, a magical item that continuously gives the benefit of the Shield spell. As an added bonus, you never have to worry about Magic Missiles.

That's a somewhat better idea, although you can't buy one at the Magic Wal-Mart, as far as I know, and the guidelines look like it's going to start at 2000 gp for a 1st level, slot-requiring item. You might be better off with defending armor spikes or something.

I have to admit, I love the name Dexter. Do you mind if I use that for my next archer character?

Be my guest.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Well, it would really depend on what you're fighting, wouldn't it? Also, most Dex builds are going to have a decent Str, and vice versa.

Dexter the Mighty
Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: (B) Quick Draw, (B) Two-Weapon Fighting, (B) Double Slice, (B) Two-Weapon Defense, (B) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (B) Improved Critical (shortsword), Weapon Focus (shortsword), Weapon Specialization (shortsword), Weapon Finesse, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses.
Special qualities: Weapon training (blades +2, bows +1), bravery +3, armor training 2

Gear 62,000
belt of physical might (+2 Str, +2 dex) (16000)
+1 shocking shortsword (1835x)
+1 flaming shortsword (1835x)
mithril chain shirt +2 (5100)
other stuff

Full attack:
+1 shocking shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+8/17-20 plus 1d6 fire) and +1 flaming shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+8/17-20 plus 1d6 electricity)

which works out to about 46-48 points of damage plus 10-11 points of energy damage, per round.

AC is at least 23 (+6 armor, +6 dex, +1 shield). After using shattering defenses, can probably fight defensively against many foes for -4 to hit but +3 to AC.

While this looks decent it takes a long time to get to this level, while a str. based fighter can dish out as much or more damage in the first few levels!
You didn't specify the order of feats. but I guess you took weapon finesse and TWF first along with Weapon Focus. So that's +2/+2 1d6+2/1d6+1 at first level. Not bad if you're fighting kobolds with 4 hps, but against tougher creatures a two-hander will consistently do more damage despite losing the 1 attack, and with Cleave can kill 2 opponents per round.

Hmm I'm trying to reverse-engineer your stat array but I ended up with 27-point buy which is beyond epic fantasy... unless you already added the bonus from the belt, in which case you have +1 to damage from an unknown source. In that case 18 PB is not too bad, between standard and high fantasy. Of course that makes the character even weaker on low-levels, with just 1d6+1 damage/1d6 damage until 4th level. Starting with 16 dex gives you AC 18 at first level (assuming scale), which is pretty much what a basic shield fighter gets so not too bad.

Oh and I realize you didn't claim this is better than the strong fighter, but my main point is that these kinds of characters are fairly weak at low-levels where rogues and rangers will outdo them easily, especially in the damage compartment and of course skill compartment.

 

[pawsplay]

While this looks decent it takes a long time to get to this level, while a str. based fighter can dish out as much or more damage in the first few levels!

Well, let's see it then. You didn't say anything about 1st level, which is a somewhat different comparison.

You didn't specify the order of feats. but I guess you took weapon finesse and TWF first along with Weapon Focus. So that's +2/+2 1d6+2/1d6+1 at first level. Not bad if you're fighting kobolds with 4 hps, but against tougher creatures a two-hander will consistently do more damage despite losing the 1 attack, and with Cleave can kill 2 opponents per round.

So, Power Attack and Cleave? Cleave is nice, but you have to hit, and there has to be an adjacent opponent, and it only works on a felling blow, and you still have to hit. On the other hand, two weapons has a good chance of wounding/killing two kobolds or maybe even two orcs, every round. And the Dex-based fighter has (likely) a better initiative and a better AC.

Hmm I'm trying to reverse-engineer your stat array but I ended up with 27-point buy which is beyond epic fantasy... unless you already added the bonus from the belt, in which case you have +1 to damage from an unknown source. In that case 18 PB is not too bad, between standard and high fantasy. Of course that makes the character even weaker on low-levels, with just 1d6+1 damage/1d6 damage until 4th level.

Somehow I got in a hurry and messed that up.

Try: Base stats Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, +2 Dex (human), two advances to Dex. Final Dex 18. Everything dex-based goes down by 1, the change to Str is inconsequential.

Reversing Str and Dex, the Str-based fighter would have Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, at first level. Greatswords would be +4 melee (1d12+4), with power attack, +3 melee (1d12+7). On a hit, that averages 13.5.

Shortsword +2 melee (1d6+2) and +2 (1d6+1) on two hits yields 10. So in a full attack situation, the difference is quite small, even at 1st level. The two-hander can certainly do a lot more damage with a standard action, assuming no power attack and both getting +4 to hit, 9.5 versus 5.5. However, the Dex-based fighter still has +1 initiative and +1 AC over him. Unless you are fighting a low AC, high hit point foe with a relatively poor attack bonus, I don't see the two-hander has a notable advantage. Cleave is useful, but being in contact with so many opponents just makes the lower AC that much more of a weakness.

As for rogues and rangers, rogues have to burn their sole feat at 1st level to go TWF and have a lower BAB, meaning a double whammy in terms of accuracy. Unless a ranger is fighting a favored foe, he will be in evey way inferior in melee to the fighter at 1st level.