The 2nd best fighter...

[Friend of the Dork]

Well, let's see it then. You didn't say anything about 1st level, which is a somewhat different comparison.

Yes, well builds are nice and whatnot but I like to see builds that works across the levels and not just level 10 or 20. A major disadvantage two any TWF builds is that they require alot of feats to work well, while the more traditional builds are less "costly" but are of course improved by feats as well.

So, Power Attack and Cleave? Cleave is nice, but you have to hit, and there has to be an adjacent opponent, and it only works on a felling blow, and you still have to hit. On the other hand, two weapons has a good chance of wounding/killing two kobolds or maybe even two orcs, every round. And the Dex-based fighter has (likely) a better initiative and a better AC.

Actually, in PF Cleave now only requires a hit with the first attack (thus power attack is not preferred as hitting is more important). Power attack would be reserved against high-hp enemies with not too high AC. The drawback is that Cleave is single attack only, thus not that useful after 6th level and up (Great Cleave is probably a better option then).

Somehow I got in a hurry and messed that up.

Try: Base stats Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, +2 Dex (human), two advances to Dex. Final Dex 18. Everything dex-based goes down by 1, the change to Str is inconsequential.

Ah ok then it makes sense. Also, I just realized the OP wanted 25 point-buy, which is Epic Fantasy scores and generally favors MAD characters.

Reversing Str and Dex, the Str-based fighter would have Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, at first level. Greatswords would be +4 melee (1d12+4), with power attack, +3 melee (1d12+7). On a hit, that averages 13.5.

Since Str directly affects to hit, the Str-based fighter can afford an 18 in str at first level (or 16 before racial adjustment). Dex 14 is nice but not required, 12 is enough for most purposes. Let's say with Power Attack, Cleave and Weapon Focus Greatsword that's +6 2d6+6 (average 13 damage), or +5 2d6+9 with Power Attack (average 16), enough to one-shot most opponents at first level. AC is going to be low though, especially when Cleaving, but if you wanted AC sword'n board is better anyway.

Shortsword +2 melee (1d6+2) and +2 (1d6+1) on two hits yields 10. So in a full attack situation, the difference is quite small, even at 1st level. The two-hander can certainly do a lot more damage with a standard action, assuming no power attack and both getting +4 to hit, 9.5 versus 5.5. However, the Dex-based fighter still has +1 initiative and +1 AC over him. Unless you are fighting a low AC, high hit point foe with a relatively poor attack bonus, I don't see the two-hander has a notable advantage. Cleave is useful, but being in contact with so many opponents just makes the lower AC that much more of a weakness.

With my example, a single hit with greatsword without power attack deals more damage than both attacks hitting with TFW at first level. Not yes you could concievably start with 18 dex as well, but IMO str is more important to a dex fighter than dex is to a str fighter. The main advantage here is that with one weapon (greatsword) you can do as much damage as two shortswords, more because of higher strength and not halving str bonus for secondary attack.

As for rogues and rangers, rogues have to burn their sole feat at 1st level to go TWF and have a lower BAB, meaning a double whammy in terms of accuracy. Unless a ranger is fighting a favored foe, he will be in evey way inferior in melee to the fighter at 1st level.

Of course Fighters are (and should be) the best to fight at first level hands down. But a Rogue need not have bad to hit, and can make do without a str bonus since he can get sneak attack. In my experience the 20 dex 10 str rogue both hit and damaged more than the paladin in my group. Being human he could start with both TWF and Weapon Finesse at first level. Loss of bab is of course significant, but a high stat and "dumping" str makes up for some of it. Not to mention the Rogue's other abilities and skills...

Hmm I will see if I can make a decent str-based fighter with the same guidelines: I will make a new post for it.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Brock

I'm having this prolonged debate with my GM and I'd like some help. The argument is whether the fighter can have an equally good DEX build (having DEX as a primary stat & going with TWF) as the traditional STR based fighter (power attacking, cleaving, etc.)

If you are playing a fighter in your campaign, of either builds, and you think he's a killer, than I'd like to see him/her. Or even better, what's the best build you can come up with for either. Let's set some creation rules:

Applies to both builds:
1. Exclusive fighter class, level 10.
2. Human.
3. Pathfinder core rules and feats only.
4. 25 point build. No stat lower than 10.
5. They should have the same CON stat.
6. Starting wealth: 62,000 gp.

Human Fighter 10. "Brock"

25-point buy w/2 stat gains and magic belt

Str 22
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Skills: Climb +17, Intimidate +13, Know: Nobility +7, Know: Engineering +10, Ride +15, Survival +12, Perception +9. (These numbers may slightly lower because of a previous build).

Feats: Combat Expertise (-3/+3), Improved Trip, Improved Initative, Greater Trip, Power Attack (-3/+9), Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Great Cleave, Toughness, Combat Reflexes.


Class Abilities: Bravery +3 Will save vs Fear, Armor Training +2 Max Dex, -2 ACP, Full Speed medium, Heavy armor. Weapon Training: Heavy Blades +2 to hit/dam, Light Blades +1 to hit/dam.

Gear (62500: Belt of Physical Might (+2 str and dex, already included)(16k)
,+2 Shocking Greatsword (18350), +4 Full Plate (17650), MW Short sword, dagger, Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000), Ring of Deflection +2 (8000) Potion of Cure Serious wounds, 250 gp normal gear, including riding horse.

Initiative +6
Bab: +10
Speed 30

AC:28 (touch 16, flat-footed 25, combat expertise 31)

HP: 89

Attacks: +2 Shocking Greatsword +21/+16 2d6+15 +1d6 Electricity (17-20), MW Short Sword +18/+13 1d6+7 (19-20). Melee +16, Ranged +13.

CMB: +16 (18 heavy blades, 17 light blades). +4 Trip.
CMD: 29 (+2 vs trip, +2 disarm/sunder vs heavy, +1 disarm/sunder vs light blades).

Fort/Red/Will +10/7/3 (+3 vs fear)

BTW I based this on an NPC I made previously, so all I had to do was to give him higher stats and alot more stuff. Even with only 5000 gear he was able to outdamage Dexter fairly easily, although his AC was mujch lower then (21).

Damage output is on average 68 per round with power attack, not counting possibility for crits. As such he is best against a single strong opponent or two, but can also use Great Cleave and strike down as many weaker opponents he can reach (max 8), assuming he hits on every attack.

Against a Fire Giant (CR 10) he hits on a 3 without buffing, or 6 with power attack, and has a decent chance of tripping it as well (11 or higher). He would be hard pressed to fight it alone (much easier to outmaneuver it or use rideby/spring attack against it), but this is supposed to be a challenge for the whole party.

 

[pawsplay]

So as we can see, damage is 56-58 versus about 68-70, AC is extraordinarily similar, and both have ways of dealing with multiple weaker opponents. Situationally, this two-hander is better against a single, high-hit point opponent, Dexter may have an edge over high AC/low Will opponents or multiple high attack bonus opponents. Dexter is a slightly better archer.

I think Dexter has held his own.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

So as we can see, damage is 56-58 versus about 68-70, AC is extraordinarily similar, and both have ways of dealing with multiple weaker opponents. Situationally, this two-hander is better against a single, high-hit point opponent, Dexter may have an edge over high AC/low Will opponents or multiple high attack bonus opponents. Dexter is a slightly better archer.

I think Dexter has held his own.

Well of course both are at the same level so damage output and ac will be similar and mostly dependent on gear chosen.

If Dexter boosts his dex to 22, then yes he will have the same to hit. But unless the enemy can only be hit on a natural 20 for both, having multiple attack will not matter as much since Brock can deal almost as much damage on a single hit than Dexter does on 2. Brock also has the advantage of more feats used on "tactical" combat, in this example Greater Trip, thus he can take on high AC low str opponents more easily.

Can Dexter hold is own? Sure, if there are no other warrior types in the group, but he is easily challenged by Barbarians, Rangers and even Paladins iMO.

So yes he's decent, but he's still the "2nd best fighter" as the thread title says. The fighter gains very little by boosting dex over a certain point, even with armor training, while there is no limit to how useful strength can be. I could probably make a TWF fighter based on strength instead of dex that will be superior in damage output and will not need Weapon Finesse, at the cost of slightly lower Iniative, dex skills and maybe a point or two less in AC at higher levels when you can get mitral plate and enchant it to +5.

 

[Rawhide]

What sources are you allowing? for example, the APG has the really cool Free Hand fighter archetype, which works well with a high-Dex (single weapon) fighter as well as the two-weapon fighter.

If you get 3pp, Super Genius Games' Feats of Combat has Web of Steel, which works really well for high-Dex characters without getting overpowering.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What sources are you allowing? for example, the APG has the really cool Free Hand fighter archetype, which works well with a high-Dex (single weapon) fighter as well as the two-weapon fighter.

If you get 3pp, Super Genius Games' Feats of Combat has Web of Steel, which works really well for high-Dex characters without getting overpowering.

According to the OP...

Let's set some creation rules:

Applies to both builds:
1. Exclusive fighter class, level 10.
2. Human.
3. Pathfinder core rules and feats only.
4. 25 point build. No stat lower than 10.
5. They should have the same CON stat.
6. Starting wealth: 62,000 gp.

 

[pawsplay]

Well of course both are at the same level so damage output and ac will be similar and mostly dependent on gear chosen.
[/quot]

I have a hard time reading that as anything other than, "Yes, the Dex fighter does just fine."

If Dexter boosts his dex to 22, then yes he will have the same to hit. But unless the enemy can only be hit on a natural 20 for both, having multiple attack will not matter as much since Brock can deal almost as much damage on a single hit than Dexter does on 2.

That's not a disadvantage, that means they are basically the same.

Brock also has the advantage of more feats used on "tactical" combat, in this example Greater Trip, thus he can take on high AC low str opponents more easily.

Dexter can intimidate everyone within 30 feet, and if they become shaken, and he hits them, they become flat-footed for a round. I think that qualifies as "tactical."

Can Dexter hold is own? Sure, if there are no other warrior types in the group, but he is easily challenged by Barbarians, Rangers and even Paladins iMO.

You're saying stuff, but I don't detect any actual points.

So yes he's decent, but he's still the "2nd best fighter" as the thread title says. The fighter gains very little by boosting dex over a certain point, even with armor training,

... other than AC, initiative, reflexes, melee attack bonus, and ranged attack bonus. How do you define "very little?"

while there is no limit to how useful strength can be. I could probably make a TWF fighter based on strength instead of dex that will be superior in damage output and will not need Weapon Finesse, at the cost of slightly lower Iniative, dex skills and maybe a point or two less in AC at higher levels when you can get mitral plate and enchant it to +5.

Feel free to do so, although IMO a lower initiative is a pretty significant sacrifice.

I'm not sure why you're dissing on Weapon Finesse. TWF doesn't require a shield, and he qualifies for Greater Weapon just as easily, so Weapon Finesse is actually a bargain. If that's going to be counted against Dexter, I think the Str fighter should be taxed for Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes.

 

[pawsplay]

1 point lower attack, and initiaitive, lower flat-footed AC, better Reflexes. Average damage about 38 plus 10-11 energy. The Dex-based fighter fares a little worse as a tripper due to needing Agile Maneuvers, but stays close on damage. Still a better archer.

Evil Fake Brock
Human Fighter 10

25-point buy w/2 stat gains and magic belt

Str 16
Dex 22
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Skills: stuff

Feats: Combat Expertise (-3/+3), Improved Trip, Double Slice, Greater Trip, Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Focus: shortsword, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.

Class Abilities: Bravery +3 Will save vs Fear, Armor Training +2 Max Dex, -2 ACP, Full Speed medium, Heavy armor. Weapon Training: Blades +2 to hit/dam, bows +1 to hit/dam.

Gear (62500: Belt of Physical Might (+2 str and dex, already included)(16k), +1 Shock shortsword (8310), +1 flaming shortsword (8310), +4 mithril breastplate (19200), MW composite longbow (Str +3), dagger, Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000), Ring of Deflection +2 (8000) Potion of Cure Serious wounds, riding horse, some arrows, normal gear and stuff

Initiative +6
Bab: +10
Speed 30

AC: 28 (touch 18, flat-footed 22, combat expertise 31)

HP: 89

Attacks: +1 shock shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+6 /17-20, plus 1d6 electricity) and +1 flaming shortsword +18/+13 (1d6+6 /17-20, plus 1d6 fire), mw longbow +17 ranged (1d8+3/x3).

CMB: +16 (18 blades, 17 bows). +4 Trip.
CMD: 29 (+2 vs trip, +2 disarm/sunder vs blades, +1 disarm/sunder vs bows)

Fort/Red/Will +10/10/3 (+3 vs fear)

 

[pawsplay]

Brock has +21 to hit, 2d6+16 with his greatsword, and -3/+9 with Power Attack. Without power attack, he probably does about 46 damage plus 3-4 energy. With it, I'm guessing about 56 damage plus 3-4 energy. That's based on a typical AC opponent (I'm assuming about 3/4 of their standard attacks hit, and a little less than 1 in 4 crit; I'm cutting that to about 3/4 with -3 to hit). The damage advantage appears to be quite small, maybe 20%, for the power attacker.

The maths probably favor Brock as he levels, but that will be compensated for to some extent as Evil Fake Brock grabs two weapon rend and (indeed) Power Attack at higher levels.

 

[concerro]

Ability Scores
STR: 22 (+6) (16 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 13 (+1)
CHA: 10 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+40)
Saving Throws
Fort: +12 Ref: +8 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)
AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +3 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Kukri +20/+20/+15/+15, 1d4+12 dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (light blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 29
Feats:
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (kukri)
Critical Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Iron Will
Toughness
Greater Weapon Focus (kukri)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Step Up
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
Two +2 kukris
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2734 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.


Assuming AC 24(average AC of CR 10 monster)

DPR(damage per round)= 54.67

The DPR for brock is 50.88 when power attacking. When not power attacking it is 46.35

Note: The best thing to do for a TWF build is to take dex to the minimum needed, and then go with strength. If not then the TWF build is not as competitive.