The 3.5 Rogue
- Thread starter Technik4
- Start date
Taking 10 is an option. Of course, if you have less than 10 points in search (or a less than 10 bonus) you arent going to be detecting jack for traps. Which is the whole point.
So most rogues take 20 and search a lot of 5ft squares, and it takes a long time. I've actually been yelled at since my rogues dont usually like to take all the time to take 20.
In either case, the new "trap sense" is hopefully an auto-search check if within 5 ft. of traps. Its by no means foolproof, it will just save a lot of dice rolling (and I like that it doesnt come at first level!).
The "trap finding" ability at 1st level (the ability to find magical traps and traps with a DC of 20+) is nice, and fits nicely in a backwards way with 3e.
I bet rogues will even get bonuses to reflex saves vs traps earlier! Woohoo!
Technik
So most rogues take 20 and search a lot of 5ft squares, and it takes a long time. I've actually been yelled at since my rogues dont usually like to take all the time to take 20.
In either case, the new "trap sense" is hopefully an auto-search check if within 5 ft. of traps. Its by no means foolproof, it will just save a lot of dice rolling (and I like that it doesnt come at first level!).
The "trap finding" ability at 1st level (the ability to find magical traps and traps with a DC of 20+) is nice, and fits nicely in a backwards way with 3e.
I bet rogues will even get bonuses to reflex saves vs traps earlier! Woohoo!
Technik
Gez
First Post
In my humble and uninformed opinion, trapfinding is the trapfinding ability of rogues (it's about time it becomes a real ability, so that the rules may read "traps with a DC above 20 may only be searched by characters with trapfinding" rather than "only rogue may do so"); but trapsense is the other half of uncanny dodge.
Remember Uncanny Dodge's steps ?
1° Dex bonus to AC.
2° Can't be flanked.
3° +1 against traps.
4° +2 against traps.
5° +3 against traps.
Etc.
Now, Uncanny Dodge will have two steps, like evasion, and trap sense will be a numbered ability, like damage reduction, ki strike, or favored enemy. In other words, Trap Sense (+2) will be the old "Uncanny Dodge (+2 against traps)"...
Remember Uncanny Dodge's steps ?
1° Dex bonus to AC.
2° Can't be flanked.
3° +1 against traps.
4° +2 against traps.
5° +3 against traps.
Etc.
Now, Uncanny Dodge will have two steps, like evasion, and trap sense will be a numbered ability, like damage reduction, ki strike, or favored enemy. In other words, Trap Sense (+2) will be the old "Uncanny Dodge (+2 against traps)"...
Shadowlord
Member
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
The rogue is even too good! Really, I don't see why everyone wouldn't start with one level of rogue (32+ skill pojunts!!).
6 skill points and a slower sneak attack progression (like every 5th level) would get him back inline, but this probably won't happen.
Shadowlord said:
The rogue is even too good! Really, I don't see why everyone wouldn't start with one level of rogue (32+ skill pojunts!!).
6 skill points and a slower sneak attack progression (like every 5th level) would get him back inline, but this probably won't happen.
Rogues can't possibly have 6 skills points - not giving a rogue enough skill points to even have full ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search, Open Lock and Disable Device amounts of taking away class features.
And the whole "Sneak attack every 5th level" thing... I think expecting people who play rogues to have the combat ability of a bard and to just be happy to get blasted with explosions, acid and poison for the greater good of the party is a bit unrealistic.
As for why everyone wouldn't want to start as one? They get nothing else at 1st level besides skill points and a 1d6 sneak attack. Your hit points take a dive, so do your Will and Fort saves and BAB, your ability to select some feats gets delayed, and having only 4 ranks in a lot of skills just isn't all that useful.
Shadowlord
Member
Isn't that enough ?!
They've got decent saves (Ref with UD & evasion becomes heroic!), BAB and not the worst HP. And they get tons of special abilities!
Shadowlord said:
Isn't that enough ?!
They've got decent saves (Ref with UD & evasion becomes heroic!), BAB and not the worst HP. And they get tons of special abilities!
We were talking about taking one level of rogue to start off, not playing a rogue character. For certain characters, those extra skills and 1d6 of sneak attack are reason enough. For most, taking a single level of rogue is pointless, because it delays their access to abilities in their primary class, and having a lot of skills with only 4 ranks in them isn't all that useful. As for the rest of it:
Rogues have the worst saves of any class - Reflex is by far the least valuable of all saves since most things that demand a reflex save result in simple HP loss, whereas Fort and Will protect against save-or-die situations. This is compounded by the fact that neither CON nor WIS are the rogue's preferred abilities.
Their hit point, generally, suck. I've seen plenty of wizards and sorcerers with better HP, simply because they can usually afford to put a much better ability into CON than rogues can.
As for BAB... 3E has three kinds of BAB: Good, Bad and "Don't even bother hitting with anything besides a touch attack."
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
That's just enough. But certainly not overpowered. No need to remove your eyes from your sockets.Shadowlord said:Isn't that enough ?!
They've got decent saves (Ref with UD & evasion becomes heroic!), BAB and not the worst HP. And they get tons of special abilities!
I think Gez is right as well BTW.
Rav
Shard O'Glase
First Post
mmu1 said:
Actually I think REF save is the most important save for the d4 adn d6 hp crwod. At those hit points fireballs etc are save or dies if you don't have a good con.
And for BAB at 20th level yeah its good, bad, or don't even try. At lower levels its a 1-2 point difference so Its good, almost as good, and not so good. Which is why over 20 levels its good, average, crap.
