D&D 3E/3.5 the 3e skill system

miggyG777

Explorer
I thought about combining Ilbranteloths approach with the granularity of Charlaquins idea and the implementation based on your ideas, Maxperson.

Untrained: Disadvantage (Ability mod)
Novice: Ability mod
Proficient: Ability mod + proficiency bonus
Expert: Advantage (Ability mod + proficiency bonus)

Novice is gained through downtime training, usage of the skill.
Proficiency is gained like RAW.
Expert is gained by putting an extra proficiency point into a proficient skill.

This would achieve a more dynamic skill system as well as nerfing the expertise rule with double proficiency that can lead to very high modifiers causing auto successes in every situation.

Here is the Anydice program to check out the numbers (you can vary DC; PROFICIENCY; ABILITYSCORE):

 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I thought about combining Ilbranteloths approach with the granularity of Charlaquins idea and the implementation based on your ideas, Maxperson.

Untrained: Disadvantage (Ability mod)
Novice: Ability mod
Proficient: Ability mod + proficiency bonus
Expert: Advantage (Ability mod + proficiency bonus)

Novice is gained through downtime training, usage of the skill.
Proficiency is gained like RAW.
Expert is gained by putting an extra proficiency point into a proficient skill.

This would achieve a more dynamic skill system as well as nerfing the expertise rule with double proficiency that can lead to very high modifiers causing auto successes in every situation.

Here is the Anydice program to check out the numbers (you can vary DC; PROFICIENCY; ABILITYSCORE):

Personally, I like the double proficiency from expertise. I think an expert should be able to know and achieve things that someone is proficient cannot. I also prefer not to give disadvantage for untrained. It's already hard enough to hit DCs without actively being bad at at.
 

Even so, if someone is willing to spend 20+ skill points by 2nd level to get one thing, then that's probably the only thing they'll be very good at. at Diplomact is easy for a DM to shut down, if it's being abused: A Diplomacy check takes one minute (10 rounds) to make. If the opponent is hostile, as in, going to attack NOW, Diplomacy doesn't apply. It can't be done in time.

While I agree that using Diplomacy at all is highly circumstantial, I don't think that "hostile" means "openly belligerent and immediately about to attack" - if so, the category "Hostile" wouldn't be included in the Diplomacy DC table at all. It's a description of someone's initial disposition.

Yasser Arafat did not pull a gun on Shimon Peres, for example; yet their initial contact was certainly hostile.

Yes, shutting down Diplomacy if it's being abused is an option; wouldn't it be better if it were less readily abused?

Moreover, the skill synergies which feed Diplomacy are not from skills which are "wasted" in pursuit of maxing out the skill, as they are mostly "Face" skills, useful if the Bard is the party spokesperson/negotiator. Consider this elite array core character:

Human Bard 2: 8 14 13 12 10 15 Negotiator, Skill Focus (Diplomacy); Bluff +7 Diplomacy +18 Disguise +7 (+9 acting) Gather Info +7 Intimidate +9 Sense Motive +7 Knowledge (nobility) +6 Perform (lute) +7

So "simple" and "tough" skill checks vary, depending on the skill. Why? Because IRL some things are just harder to do than others.

This moveable baseline is problematic to me. It would be simpler if simple meant simple, and tough meant tough. This would avoid the problem of DCs migrating ever upward, in order to challenge characters at any given level.

I mean, I still play 3.5 - pretty much RAW at low levels. But I'm not oblivious to its warts.
 

Weiley31

Legend
Thanks Maxperson, that actually sounds like a nice way to implement it. I might try that.

I also found this approach by Ilbranteloth:



What do you guys think about this? It nerfs players with non-proficiency in skills a bit more than the RAW do and therefore make the system a bit more dynamic because not every player is somewhat good at everything.

Obviously one way to do this in RAW is that you could just say, that if you are not proficient in a skill you can't apply it to certain tasks.

But the way he uses disadvantage / advantage allows you to transform that arbitrary rule into a generally applicable rule.

One critique however was, that it interferes with other advantage / disadvantage mechanics. Ilbranteloth replied to that with stacking advantages for instance. But I am really not sure how feasible that would be, since RAW clearly state that you cannot do that.

I saw that post. It was actually suggested by Charlaquin that doing the "Advantage/Disadvantage" would cancel each other out.

So the recommendation was that instead of that, it would be treating it as

Untrained: Ability mod only
Novice: Ability mod + half-proficiency bonus
Proficient: Ability mod + proficiency bonus
Expert: Ability mod + double proficiency bonus
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I saw that post. It was actually suggested by Charlaquin that doing the "Advantage/Disadvantage" would cancel each other out.

So the recommendation was that instead of that, it would be treating it as

Untrained: Ability mod only
Novice: Ability mod + half-proficiency bonus
Proficient: Ability mod + proficiency bonus
Expert: Ability mod + double proficiency bonus

We originally played around with numerical bonuses like this. However, part of our approach was specifically because we wanted to avoid the possible +12 bonus for expertise at high levels. So we were considering a +2 bonus above the Proficiency Bonus.

In the end we felt that the extra math (as little as it is) wasn't worth the trouble. Advantage/Disadvantage handled that well. While it does potentially interfere with other advantage/disadvantage scenarios, it hasn't been that frequently that it's really mattered.

In addition, we've decided to approach Advantage/Disadvantage a bit differently as well. One of the factors we like best about using Advantage/Disadvantage vs. a flat bonus is the variability. As such, we've been experimenting with Advantage/Disadvantage giving +/- 1d4 instead. And if the circumstances warrant something greater than that, then we have been experimenting with either adding additional d4s, or increasing the die type to d6, d8, etc.

The downside to this approach, aside from the math, is that it adds a different type of variability. With the current advantage/disadvantage appraoch, it increases your chance of rolling high or low. This other approach does the same, but it also increases (or decreases) the potential total roll. We're on the fence for that.

In which case we may just stick with the possibility of stacking advantage/disadvantage in the times when we feel that circumstances increase the chances by more than +/- 25%.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Shutting down Diplomacy is so easy using the existing 3e system that it becomes a purely optional skill. DM's option.

By RAW, it takes a full minute before the dice ever hit the table. If the opponent doesn't give the character that minute, which they may not if they see other PCs casting prep spells or readying weapons (or even if they're impatient or p**sed), the Diplomacy flat out fails. Not even a dice roll.

So of all of the skills to complain about, that one is kind of silly.

Over the years I've seen a lot of abuse of rules, in a wide variety of games and editions, and it's amazing how many of those abuses get shut down if you play the rules exactly as written.

This applies to 3e as much as any other.
 

3E Diplomacy is actually a good system at base as long as you apply common sense and make some simple fixes. (I can never understand why people whined and whined about one particular area of the system which is so easily fixed.)

It's better than the whole "I roll persuasion" thing of 5e. It's clear that's it's about changing attitudes not convincing. It doesn't matter how helpful you make someone you're probably not convining them that Bigfoot is coming to their bbq and bringing whisky*. It's fatal flaw was always the fact that you could shift someone several steps in one go. You take that out, and say for example that it both takes increasingly more time (exponentially increasing time) and extra rolls to move someone's attitude further steps along.

And it's neat because it leaves room for interacting with the system without rolling.

Say you have a group of mercenaries you need to get information from. Sure the bard may be charming as hell, but their default attitude to the bard may be unfriendly (pretty boy musician in his fancy clothes and with his fancy talk). The fighter, on the other hand, he looks like he's seen some real action and knows where they're coming from, they might start off friendly with him, and if he then goes and buys them a round of drinks they may become positively helpful. No rolls needed. Of course then he still has to talk to the mercenaries in order to convince them to tell him what he wants to know - but that's something you can role-play out, now you've established the parameters.

*because everyone knows he's cheap.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
This is how I would do it.

I would allow novice ability to a skill through downtime training or through game play when I felt that a PC has used a skill enough to warrant improvement. Proficiency would be from proficiencies gained at the character creation or when the game allows it, such as when choosing the skilled feat. Expert would cost a proficiency. So if your Paladin chose the Acolyte background, he could choose 4 proficiencies. However, both lists have insight and religion on them, so he could pick three and be an expert in either religion or insight, or pick only insight and religion and be an expert at both. The skilled feat would allow new proficiency or expertise in existing skills.

I would also be able to grant proficiency and expertise via in game rewards from beings or items.


It wouldn't. They don't have to sacrifice at all to become an expert and would also be able to take advantage of the Skilled feat.
I like this quite a bit.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
3E Diplomacy is actually a good system at base as long as you apply common sense and make some simple fixes. (I can never understand why people whined and whined about one particular area of the system which is so easily fixed.)

It's better than the whole "I roll persuasion" thing of 5e. It's clear that's it's about changing attitudes not convincing. It doesn't matter how helpful you make someone you're probably not convining them that Bigfoot is coming to their bbq and bringing whisky*. It's fatal flaw was always the fact that you could shift someone several steps in one go. You take that out, and say for example that it both takes increasingly more time (exponentially increasing time) and extra rolls to move someone's attitude further steps along.

And it's neat because it leaves room for interacting with the system without rolling.

Say you have a group of mercenaries you need to get information from. Sure the bard may be charming as hell, but their default attitude to the bard may be unfriendly (pretty boy musician in his fancy clothes and with his fancy talk). The fighter, on the other hand, he looks like he's seen some real action and knows where they're coming from, they might start off friendly with him, and if he then goes and buys them a round of drinks they may become positively helpful. No rolls needed. Of course then he still has to talk to the mercenaries in order to convince them to tell him what he wants to know - but that's something you can role-play out, now you've established the parameters.

*because everyone knows he's cheap.

What you are describing is similar to why I love the 5e system with one significant difference/change of focus. Passive checks.

In the AD&D non-weapon proficiency system, with a few exceptions, when you were proficient in something, it was expected that you could just do it. If you had blacksmithing, then given tools and time, you could make horseshoes. That makes sense.

But for some things, you'd need to make a judgement call as to when somebody could succeed at something more difficult. The DC system addressed this, although it strangely meant that in many games, things that you could have just done before now often required checks, since there wasn't much guidance as to when you could just do it.

3e had the Take 10/20 approach, which also makes sense - if you spend a certain amount of time attempting something you're capable of achieving, then you'll eventually succeed. This was a step in the right direction, although there is a subtle difference between things you can just do, and things that you can succeed at given enough time.

Passive checks to me were the missing link.

Now, as a DM, I have all the tools to know when I need to ask for a die roll, based on the circumstances. The Passive score tells me what PC knows how to do, which can be modified by circumstances with advantage/disadvantage. I also know what they are capable of: 20 + their modifier. Anything more challenging than that is out of reach.

If the circumstances allow them to just spend whatever amount of time they need, and the DC is between those two, then what I most need to determine is how long it will take. Most of the time I can just work that into the narrative, without any die rolls.

Die rolls are needed when something is hard enough that they won't just be able to do it, but it's within their capabilities, and there are some consequences for failure, or perhaps not immediate success. For example, trying to pick a lock while the guards are away on their rounds. The rest of the party is watching out for the guards, while the PC is trying to get the lock open. When rolling for their check, I'm actually trying to determine how long it will take, and I use the difference between the DC and their roll to do that, measured in rounds. If they are trying to find something in a wizard's library, that amount of time might be measured by the minute, 10-minute chunks (AD&D turns), or even hours. It also eliminates multiple rolls unless the circumstances change sufficiently to warrant it.

While some people might have an issue with the fewer die rolls, the reality is that we are advised to keep them to a minimum, but without solid guidance like this approach. Die rolls occur only when they really matter, otherwise the focus remains on the role-playing and narrative, instead of the mechanics. Yet it fully accounts for the character's stats and the choices made when building the PC. You might find that you tweak DCs a little bit, but I find that the published DCs are a little low for my tastes.

The other complaint is about things like the Rogue's Reliable Talent. Personally, I think that's a poor design choice, or they didn't quite grasp the powerful system that Passive checks creates. Either way, my players don't care about it at all, and when needed we're happy to replace it with another ability that they would like in exchange. That's something we would work out together, although it's never been a thing, mostly because we haven't run any PCs of that level.

This approach takes into account that the charming rogue, or charismatic paladin is always that way. I take those abilities into account when portraying the reactions of NPCs, and also encourage players to play the part.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What you are describing is similar to why I love the 5e system with one significant difference/change of focus. Passive checks.

In the AD&D non-weapon proficiency system, with a few exceptions, when you were proficient in something, it was expected that you could just do it. If you had blacksmithing, then given tools and time, you could make horseshoes. That makes sense.

But for some things, you'd need to make a judgement call as to when somebody could succeed at something more difficult. The DC system addressed this, although it strangely meant that in many games, things that you could have just done before now often required checks, since there wasn't much guidance as to when you could just do it.

3e had the Take 10/20 approach, which also makes sense - if you spend a certain amount of time attempting something you're capable of achieving, then you'll eventually succeed. This was a step in the right direction, although there is a subtle difference between things you can just do, and things that you can succeed at given enough time.

Passive checks to me were the missing link.

Now, as a DM, I have all the tools to know when I need to ask for a die roll, based on the circumstances. The Passive score tells me what PC knows how to do, which can be modified by circumstances with advantage/disadvantage. I also know what they are capable of: 20 + their modifier. Anything more challenging than that is out of reach.

If the circumstances allow them to just spend whatever amount of time they need, and the DC is between those two, then what I most need to determine is how long it will take. Most of the time I can just work that into the narrative, without any die rolls.

Die rolls are needed when something is hard enough that they won't just be able to do it, but it's within their capabilities, and there are some consequences for failure, or perhaps not immediate success. For example, trying to pick a lock while the guards are away on their rounds. The rest of the party is watching out for the guards, while the PC is trying to get the lock open. When rolling for their check, I'm actually trying to determine how long it will take, and I use the difference between the DC and their roll to do that, measured in rounds. If they are trying to find something in a wizard's library, that amount of time might be measured by the minute, 10-minute chunks (AD&D turns), or even hours. It also eliminates multiple rolls unless the circumstances change sufficiently to warrant it.

While some people might have an issue with the fewer die rolls, the reality is that we are advised to keep them to a minimum, but without solid guidance like this approach. Die rolls occur only when they really matter, otherwise the focus remains on the role-playing and narrative, instead of the mechanics. Yet it fully accounts for the character's stats and the choices made when building the PC. You might find that you tweak DCs a little bit, but I find that the published DCs are a little low for my tastes.

The other complaint is about things like the Rogue's Reliable Talent. Personally, I think that's a poor design choice, or they didn't quite grasp the powerful system that Passive checks creates. Either way, my players don't care about it at all, and when needed we're happy to replace it with another ability that they would like in exchange. That's something we would work out together, although it's never been a thing, mostly because we haven't run any PCs of that level.

This approach takes into account that the charming rogue, or charismatic paladin is always that way. I take those abilities into account when portraying the reactions of NPCs, and also encourage players to play the part.
If I read this right, you're using passive ability checks as the floor for a check?

That's entire valid, but I disagree with it. Passive checks are what happens when a PC is expending effort to do that thing over time. It's a time saving construction where you don't have to roll all the time, not a floor for active check. If a PC is on watch, I'm going to use their passive perception as the target for an assassin's stealth check to approach unseen. If the PC declares an action to specifically look at something, that's an active check, and the normal loop occurs (is there a consequence for failure, is the check not trivial, good, ask for a check). Using passive checks as a floor distorts the skill system and, as you note, almost requires DC inflation to keep things in check (heh).

Again, this is a perfectly valid way of doing things, I'm just registering a different approach and my personal dislike of it.
 

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