Bonedagger
First Post
I don't see a problem with using an ass. loophole. As long as the player know it wont be painless. He might only be thinking of power.
The Assassin Loophole
- Thread starter Frostmarrow
- Start date
Desdichado
Hero
Bleh. Just use the Assassin class in Green Ronin's book. 
green slime
First Post
Frostmarrow said:
You're saying that a good ex-assassin would poison himself on purpose once every 20 times handling poison, out of shame?
LOL
Something like that 
Wil
First Post
I'm going to second the notions that poison use and death attack are not automatically evil. Basically, it's saying that it's not evil for a cleric to bludgeon a goblin to death with a mace in a most painful and slow manner - but it is for the goblin to be poisoned or otherwise die in a quick, painless manner?
In other words, if you're "good" and you're fighting "evil" monsters it would seem that any means necessary is justifiable in eliminating the "evil". A lawful good mage can cast any number of horrendous spells, but as long as they're aimed at the Forces of Darkness(tm) it's okay. As such, the evil nature of assassins isn't in their abilities, but in the way that they use those abilities. Having a change of heart after several years of being an assassin would simply change how the character used those abilities, not whether or not they could be used at all.
Now, not being overly familiar with the skill system I have to assume that any ability to create poison automatically encompasses the ability to make antidotes (it would be kind of silly if not). So, an assassin that becomes good can't use Craft(Poison) to create antidotes without becoming evil again?
In other words, if you're "good" and you're fighting "evil" monsters it would seem that any means necessary is justifiable in eliminating the "evil". A lawful good mage can cast any number of horrendous spells, but as long as they're aimed at the Forces of Darkness(tm) it's okay. As such, the evil nature of assassins isn't in their abilities, but in the way that they use those abilities. Having a change of heart after several years of being an assassin would simply change how the character used those abilities, not whether or not they could be used at all.
Now, not being overly familiar with the skill system I have to assume that any ability to create poison automatically encompasses the ability to make antidotes (it would be kind of silly if not). So, an assassin that becomes good can't use Craft(Poison) to create antidotes without becoming evil again?
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
I'd allow this as well -- it sounds like a very interesting character.
Daniel
Daniel
herald
First Post
I have always hated that poison=evil.
Using poison against intelligent (sentiant) opponents is dishonorable, but could be very understandable.
If on the other hand a Bulete, or an Ankheg or some other non-self-aware magical beast/vermin/ect is terrorizing the populace, hey anything goes.
Using poison against intelligent (sentiant) opponents is dishonorable, but could be very understandable.
If on the other hand a Bulete, or an Ankheg or some other non-self-aware magical beast/vermin/ect is terrorizing the populace, hey anything goes.
Kerrick
First Post
For anyone who cares...
--DMG, p 27.
Anyway... I rather agree with the other people on this thread. I see no reason why the assassin would suddenly lose the knowledge required to use poison or perform a killing blow. In those cases, I would think it's more an active willingness to turn one's back on one's past, like someone mentioned, but even then it makes little sense. I don't think assassins have to be evil; what about those who were raised as assassins, and killing is all they know, but they aren't cold-blooded killers? Are they evil? I don't think they guy who does his job cleanly and professionally, but doesn't take any enjoyment from it, would be evil (at least not totally.. he might be LN or N with evil leanings...).
However, if the assassin "had a change of heart" and shifted to neutral or good alignment, that would imply that he wishes to leave his past behind, and he would not, in any logical sense, wish to employ "those evil abilities". My recommendation - make the ranger LN. His intense hatred hobgoblins, coupled with his zealous hunting of them, has resulted in him becoming an assassin. He doesn't realize this, however, and so does not gain ALL of the class abilities (specifically, the spell use - it would be a little hard to justify that in this sense). Instead, I'd either cut that out (never saw the point in giving asssasins spells in the first place) or replace it with something else. Or, since he IS non-evil, you could make the class abilities employable only against hobgoblins, but again that would be a little difficult to swing. Just my two cents.
--DMG, p 27.
Anyway... I rather agree with the other people on this thread. I see no reason why the assassin would suddenly lose the knowledge required to use poison or perform a killing blow. In those cases, I would think it's more an active willingness to turn one's back on one's past, like someone mentioned, but even then it makes little sense. I don't think assassins have to be evil; what about those who were raised as assassins, and killing is all they know, but they aren't cold-blooded killers? Are they evil? I don't think they guy who does his job cleanly and professionally, but doesn't take any enjoyment from it, would be evil (at least not totally.. he might be LN or N with evil leanings...).
However, if the assassin "had a change of heart" and shifted to neutral or good alignment, that would imply that he wishes to leave his past behind, and he would not, in any logical sense, wish to employ "those evil abilities". My recommendation - make the ranger LN. His intense hatred hobgoblins, coupled with his zealous hunting of them, has resulted in him becoming an assassin. He doesn't realize this, however, and so does not gain ALL of the class abilities (specifically, the spell use - it would be a little hard to justify that in this sense). Instead, I'd either cut that out (never saw the point in giving asssasins spells in the first place) or replace it with something else. Or, since he IS non-evil, you could make the class abilities employable only against hobgoblins, but again that would be a little difficult to swing. Just my two cents.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Poison doesn't equal evil, just dishonorable. After all, a NG druid could still use poison, or a LG rogue, if they wanted. Using poison doesn't cause your alignment to change. Jut like using a death attack doesn't cause your alignment to change.
By the book, you loose all benefits from the class if you loose one of the prerequisites -- namely the Evil alignment in this case. Just like with a feat.
It's not well-reasoned in a lot of cases...you could chalk it up to it all being powered by the belief in evil that keeps you going, but it does require a stretch.
I, personally, would allow it. But I'm a veeery linient DM. I think it's a cool character idea, a former assassin who has turned away but continues to hone his skills FOR GOODNESS!
Of course, I don't think that Assassins should be *required* to be evil myself, in the same way that I disagree with the ranger "you pick your own race and you're evil" thing....blah to all of that!
And since it's a flavor restriction, there's nothing unbalanced about it.
I'd be all for it.
But, again, by the book, this isn't a loophole, just a way to incapacitate your character.
By the book, you loose all benefits from the class if you loose one of the prerequisites -- namely the Evil alignment in this case. Just like with a feat.
It's not well-reasoned in a lot of cases...you could chalk it up to it all being powered by the belief in evil that keeps you going, but it does require a stretch.
I, personally, would allow it. But I'm a veeery linient DM. I think it's a cool character idea, a former assassin who has turned away but continues to hone his skills FOR GOODNESS!
Of course, I don't think that Assassins should be *required* to be evil myself, in the same way that I disagree with the ranger "you pick your own race and you're evil" thing....blah to all of that!
And since it's a flavor restriction, there's nothing unbalanced about it.
I'd be all for it.
But, again, by the book, this isn't a loophole, just a way to incapacitate your character.
Celebrim
Legend
Well, this is a potentially interesting character. But, it is also screams munchkin.
My position is that the skills are naturally acquired and would not be lost, but that a truly attoned assasine would not be able to progress further in assassin.
I'd be very skeptical of allowing someone to play this unless I trusted them. I'm also inclined to think that maybe just a conversion to neutrality would be a little more believable at the start of the campaign. A miraculous conversion to good better have a darn good story accompaning it. I'm also inclined to think that a person who converted from assassin would be _VERY_ hesitant to use his skills, and much more likely to closely consider the question of 'is it right to kill' than the average adventurer. A truly attoned assassin better be pretty darn merciful, pretty darn often, because after all HE KNOWS that just because someone is evil doesn't mean that they are unreformable. On the other hand, he'd probably be pretty ruthless if he felt justified.
The way I'd like to play this character myself is as a Lawful Neutral, with the conflict within the character revolving around 'Once you start down the path of the dark side, does it forever dominate your destiny?' I'd definately be looking to manuever the character into a moral crisis situation, with the choices being 'Become a good guy.' and 'Return to being a villain', once the story got sufficiently advanced (6-7 levels down the road most likely). I'd probably watch a movie like 'The Road to Perdition' before setting down to RP a character like this.
My position is that the skills are naturally acquired and would not be lost, but that a truly attoned assasine would not be able to progress further in assassin.
I'd be very skeptical of allowing someone to play this unless I trusted them. I'm also inclined to think that maybe just a conversion to neutrality would be a little more believable at the start of the campaign. A miraculous conversion to good better have a darn good story accompaning it. I'm also inclined to think that a person who converted from assassin would be _VERY_ hesitant to use his skills, and much more likely to closely consider the question of 'is it right to kill' than the average adventurer. A truly attoned assassin better be pretty darn merciful, pretty darn often, because after all HE KNOWS that just because someone is evil doesn't mean that they are unreformable. On the other hand, he'd probably be pretty ruthless if he felt justified.
The way I'd like to play this character myself is as a Lawful Neutral, with the conflict within the character revolving around 'Once you start down the path of the dark side, does it forever dominate your destiny?' I'd definately be looking to manuever the character into a moral crisis situation, with the choices being 'Become a good guy.' and 'Return to being a villain', once the story got sufficiently advanced (6-7 levels down the road most likely). I'd probably watch a movie like 'The Road to Perdition' before setting down to RP a character like this.
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