The Bane of PrC

[Voadam]

That's one of the problems with most prcs, they require hefty and sometimes esoteric mechanical requirements to get into them. This means that to get into one at say seventh level, you need to plan almost from the beginning. For instance the Harper mage prc is really cool (imo) but it requires the educated feat which must be taken at first level. If you take a general set of feats at first level you will never qualify except by DM fiat. Also you need to spend skill points on sense motive and other non wizardly skills.

for many organizations this does not make sense. I would think more fighter groups, for instance, would only care if you are generally tough enough to join, not whether you have the specific toughness and endurance feats or cleave.

IMO the best prcs from a campaign perspective have requirements tied to the class (not inserted solely for balance) and are open to a wide variety of characters who become interested and want to join or that have significant nonmechanical requirements (sponsorship, spirit quest etc.).

 

[Dr_Rictus]

for many organizations this does not make sense. I would think more fighter groups, for instance, would only care if you are generally tough enough to join, not whether you have the specific toughness and endurance feats or cleave.

You're assuming that prestige classes and organizations are the same thing, or at the very least that having a prestige class to represent an organization necessarily implies that every member of the organization has the prestige class. Of course that's silly; the only thing that actually matters is that you have the necessary abilities to function as is expected of a member of the organization.

But this isn't a problem with prestige classes. It's a problem with too closely coupling your fiction and the game mechanics that implement it, to the exclusion of narrative sense. Nothing about prestige classes requires you to make that mistake.

 

[shouit]

But does it make sense to plan them out. I understand that sometimes it is a necessity, with feats and all. But, I do like the analogy with writers vs characters, that the players know where they are headed and the characters might not. That makes a little more sense to me, put that way. I just get tired of people taken the necessary feats to get the PrC and then not really using them, i.e Combat Reflexes. But that is a topic for another thread.

Thanks guys and thanks Vaxalon, that is a really good way of looking at it.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

But does it make sense to plan them out.

Hmm, well, try to look at it this way- in college I, and others, had 5, 10, 15, 20+ year plans where we wanted to go professionally.

All of us took classes and looked into opportunities that would help us achieve those plans.

Sometimes life throws you a curve, but then you adjust your plans or adjust how you go about achieving them.

The good thing about d&d is that life is not necessarily outside of control- and the dm can help the players make the characters they want to play over the course of the campeign.

FD

 

[Nifft]

IMHO PrCs should have qualification ranges and/or alternate entry strategies, so the DM can tailor them to the PCs, campaign world, or personal concept. Having mechanics for trading pre-requisites would be nifty.

For example, the Shadowdancer:

• Current Prerequisites:
• Move Silently: 8 ranks.
• Hide: 10 ranks.
• Perform: 5 ranks.
• Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes

But I might feel that all a SD needs is the ability to move swiftly, silently, and stealthily, so I'd allow this entry point as well:

• Move Silently: 8 ranks.
• Hide: 8 ranks.
• Tumble: 8 ranks.
• Balance: 8 ranks.
• Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Dash

Finally, make sure players know about the FEEL of the PrC, and NOT the numerics. Make sure they know you've secretly changed the entry requirements, though. Let them hear about powerful people who are members of the PrC, or let them meet actual members of the PrC.

Let this NPC determine if they get into the PrC -- more RP, less meta-gaming.

-- Nifft

 

[Synicism]

Originally posted by shouit I understand that each PrC have requirements and feats that are needed to go to them, but why not see where the character goes first? If you want to play a bard, play one, not a wanna be shadow dancer. Am I anti-PrC, no. But, I want the player not to have to plan 6 to 9 levels before that they want to be a certain PrC. Also note, I do understand that sometimes that is feasible to justify that, like the different sects of Paladin under Corean in the Scarred Lands, but for a character from podunk backwater to know there are things like shadow dancers out there when he has never left his home, is absurd.

I don't know. I think it makes perfect sense to plan out a character for a prestige class. Many people approach their lives with a specific goal in mind. For example, if I want to be a neurosurgeon, I am going to study specific things and practice specific things designed to get me there.

For example, a dwarf fighter who begins play as a stalwart protector of his people and a dedicated defender of his lands is a perfect candidate for the Dwarven Defender prestige class, whether or not he has ever seen one in his life. Since many of the requirements for the Dwarven Defender are great for any defensively oriented dwarf fighter to have, there is no reason not to take them whether he chooses to take the prestige class or not.

Prestige classes are a specialized expression of a specific career path. If a character already wants to pursue that path, then those requirements are going to help him get there. They are things that such a character would want to know anyway.

 

[Nightfall]

Also note, I do understand that sometimes that is feasible to justify that, like the different sects of Paladin under Corean in the Scarred Lands, but for a character from podunk backwater to know there are things like shadow dancers out there when he has never left his home, is absurd.

What do you guys think?

This is why I like the Pr-classes in the Scarred Lands better. If a woman has sorcerous ability, you can bet she'll be a member of the Helliann. Or if you're training as paladin, you can figure out just WHICH order best suits you, if any.

 

[TiQuinn]

I don't mind players planning out their progression since many prestige classes have fairly stringent prerequisites that almost require a player to plan carefully right from first level in order to be eligible to use the class come 8th or 9th level. However, if you don't allow this, I'd recommend altering the PrC prereqs so that you don't punish the player.

 

[Hand of Evil]

PrCs are a DM's option, they are not a players. You as the DM let it be known what PrCs are available and build your game around them! To top this off, you can change them to make them better fit your game.

 

[Theovis]

As has been pointed out, the mechanics almost demand that players plan for their prestige classes well in advance - usually right from Level 1.

Why not think of a prestige class as *starting* at level 1? If someone wants to be an arcane archer, then think of the arcane archer as a single class who's low level abilities mirror that of a multiclassed wizard/fighter (for example)?

I tend to have a much more organic view of classes IMC. A fighter/cleric is either a particular martial clergyman, or a particular spiritual warrior. They blend to form a cohesive and complex character, rather than a dichotomy of unrelated abilities.

For that reason, I have no special restrictions on Monk or Paladin multiclassing - I don't see the multiclass as a divergence from their "focus", simply that their path is different than a single classed monk.