The Basic Math of D&D 5: Maximum Points

[ren1999]

These are questions I would like answered based on responses I have received so far.

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level character to kill a 30th level monster?

I'm thinking 3 rounds. Characters are the heroes. Conan rarely struggles or suffered a lot of damage in movies and comics. But he was sufficiently challenged.

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level monster to kill a 30th level character?

I'm thinking 5 rounds. It should be a bit harder.

rounds, a 1st level character to kill a 1st level monster?

my answer, 1 round

rounds, a 1st level monster to kill a 1st level character?

my answer, 3 rounds

I don't want a new character to be killed by just one successful attack by a monster. I want to allow at least one round for the character to get some healing.

How many rounds of combat do players play before they start to get tired of it?

My answer is 3 rounds.

What should be the highest maximum hit points of a character?
Of a monster?

For monsters, I'm thinking the return of hit dice. It should be 30x4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 hit dice. For characters I'm thinking a 30th level fighter type should have his or her constitution score + 12 points per level up. This really gives me, the DM, a chance to try to hurt the characters but not allow me to kill them easily.

a fighter type character would have possible max hit points of constitution:22+30 levels of 12 hit points. hit points:382

a monster's max 30 levels x 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 30d12+22

What should be the highest maximum ability scores, modifiers and level-up bonuses?

I'm thinking a maximum natural roll of 3d6=18
+1 to all abilities at 11th and 21st level.
+1 to one ability at 11th and 21st level.
Maximum possible Strength22(Modifier:+6)

What should be the range of feat bonuses to ability scores?
+1 weapon proficiency, +1 improved, +1 weapon focus for a total of +3

What should be the maximum magical bonus from magical items?

my answer, +6 longsword for example

What should be the maximum damage of a power?

My answer is 3[w]+15levels+6abilities+3feats+6magic=ex. 3d12+30
I only want to roll 3 dice not 14 dice.

so, a 30th level monster with hd30d12 could have 360 hit points attack at 1d20+30 and do 3d12+30 damage

a 30th level character will have 382 hit points attack at 1d20+30 and do 3d12+30 damage.

That's 66 hit points maximum possible damage in 5 rounds to cut down a monster with 360 possible max hit points.

a 1st level character will have a max possible constitution 18+12 hit points for fighter types. 30 hit points and attack at 1d20+5 and do damage of 1d12+4+1 for weapon proficiency 1d12+5

a 1st level monster could have a max of 1d12 hit points for a total of 12 hit points attack at 1d12+5 and do damage of 1d12+5 possibly.

Now, because wizard types and cleric types will get a burst 1 square attack maximum burst 3, they should get less hit points to balance it all out.

fighter types 12 hit points per level up
rogue types 10
cleric types 8
wizard types 6 + constitution 18+6=24, so if a 1st level monster does maximum damage of 17, the wizard can still live and get healing unless another monster hits, which is quite possible and makes it still challenging.

Right now, Loth has 634 hit points. The math gets a little troublesome here.
Right now, in Pathfinder, some spells do an additional dice of damage per level.

Time for maximum limits.

 

[Stormonu]

These are questions I would like answered based on responses I have received so far.

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level character to kill a 30th level monster?

My preference would be 5-10 rounds.

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level monster to kill a 30th level character?

I agree that it should take a monster a little bit longer to kill PCs - about 25% longer, so about 6-12 rounds.

rounds, a 1st level character to kill a 1st level monster?

1-2 rounds. I think 2 should be "average", but 1 could occur.

rounds, a 1st level monster to kill a 1st level character

2-3 rounds, I think 1 would be folly.

How many rounds of combat do players play before they start to get tired of it?

Depends how long between a player's turn. In BECMI, after about 7 rounds, combat seemed to get boring. In 3E, 3-5 seems good. 3 rounds seems way to quick/short.

What should be the highest maximum hit points of a character?
Of a monster?

I like the old 1E/2E of max 10 dice, +1/3 the die for each level past that - so a 30th level fighter would be 10d10+60 (3/level past 10).

For monsters, I think it should be 10 dice, +/- based on size (say +2/-2 per size category different from Medium), plus up to 2 hp/"level" past 10th. Not counting creatures with class levels.

What should be the highest maximum ability scores, modifiers and level-up bonuses?

Max ability score for a medium-sized mortal being should be 19. Factoring in magic, +6 so a maximum of 25. That max would be modified by size of the creature and certain supernatural creatures could exceed that as well.

What should be the range of feat bonuses to ability scores?

Feats -> no bonuses, only new options

What should be the maximum magical bonus from magical items?

Magical -> no bonus. There should only be equipment/masterwork bonus, of up to +5

What should be the maximum damage of a power?

I'm hoping we won't be seeing powers in 5E. Damage-based spells should do no more than 1d6/spell level (assuming 9 spell levels). 3rd+ level spells would use vancian per day limits. 1st level spells would be at-will, with some method for 2nd level spells to be built up to or going off every so often (so a wizard's base spell attacks would be 1d6, with 2d6 every few rounds and higher damage increasingly rarer).

Sneak attacks should be something 1x/fight (either as an opening strike or finishing blow), dealing no more than +1d6/2 levels

Warrior-types would deal base weapon damage, gaining additional attacks at higher levels, and perhaps some sort of "combat mastery" that adds a d6 or two to the damage.

So, I'd be looking at a 30th level wizard able to do a 1d6 attack at will, 2d6 every 3rd round, and able to drop up to a 9d6 spell [31 damage average] against a single opponent (or 4d6 in a 20 ft. burst) four times a day.

A 30th level fighter would get up to 5/2 attacks a round (2 attacks round 1, 3 attacks round 2) that deals 1d8+2d6 damage each (grand total 2d8+4d6/3d8+6d6 [24/34 damage average]).

A 30th level (colossal) dragon would have something like 20d8+40 hp (90 hp average).

 

[YRUSirius]

I really like the assumption that (in average) it should take 1 round for a level 1 character to kill a level 1 monster; so that 4 level 1 characters should take 2 combat rounds to mop the floor with 8 goblins (standard starter monsters that act like minions, gives me the LotR style cinematic combat narrative I'd like to have).

There can always be a tougher "monster boss" in an encounter that could drop in 3 rounds for a character of the same level.

To achieve this I'd go back to something more classic D&D. Go back to hit dice for characters and monsters.

Level 1 monsters get 1 hit dice: roll or take average to get something like a minion monster. I think that the monster's hit dice should be low (d4-d6 for the classic humanoid monsters like goblins and orcs).

Level 1 characters should get tripple max hit dice though. So in my version a fighter gets 30 + CON hitpoints (just like Star Wars: Saga Edition), because their hit dice is a d10. But a wizard gets 12 + CON hitpoints (he is no fighter afterall: hit dice d4).

Boss monsters could be normal monsters just with tripple their standard hd, or an appropriate "boss monster" for a level 1 character should be a level 3 monster (3 hit dice).

Normal weapon damage is 1 dice (d4-d12), so in average it should create the wanted effect. Spells should do 1 dice damage per character level (a level 3 wizard who casts his highest spell does 3d damage with it, small damage dice if it's an area attack, big damage dice if it's a single attack).

Class features for the fighter for example should somehow add to his average damage output as he levels. The classic method was to just give him additional attacks per round. So let's say at level 6, 12 and 18 he gets one additional free attack per round, for 4 attacks at level 18. Something like weapon specialization could increase his attack and damage for +1. Give him several weapon specializations that could stack for additional damage and attack bonus for his super specialized use of his greataxe. Something like that. Keep in mind that a fighter can attack every round but a wizard shouldn't use his best spells every round.



QUICK DIRTY FIGHTS, HERE I COME!

-YRUSirius

 

[The Shadow]

As far as I'm concerned, +X weapons can die in a fire. They're completely unflavorful. I could see a *particular* magic sword giving a +X to hit, based on its specific enchantments. (Like the way the sword Caudimordax gave a huge bonus to hit dragons in 'Farmer Giles of Ham'.) But this idea that it's normal for a sword to give a bonus to hit, and the exact same bonus to damage, has to go.

I'd rather see fighters get a bonus to damage for level than multiple attacks, along with a class feature similar to Great Cleave so that he can buzzsaw his way through hordes of minions. If it only worked on minions, it would kind of resemble the 1e "Kill X 1hd critters per round" rule, come to think. You know, I like this quite a bit - a high level fighter is a force of nature against the goblin hordes, but when he gets to the warchief, suddenly it's a cut-scene and he has to fight him straight-up!

Aside from these points, I think Stormonu speaks wisdom.

 

[trancejeremy]

Level 1 characters should get tripple max hit dice though. So in my version a fighter gets 30 + CON hitpoints (just like Star Wars: Saga Edition), because their hit dice is a d10. But a wizard gets 12 + CON hitpoints (he is no fighter afterall: hit dice d4).

While I think 1st level characters should get some sort of buff, I think it should use the VP/WP system. Only renamed - hit points being the vitality points, and Constitution being the wound pounds.

 

[YRUSirius]

Nah, not simple enough for me.

-YRUSirius

 

[ren1999]

Roll a player-character.
Roll the player-characters ability scores for Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and
Charisma.
Assign a score of 18 to one ability score.
Assign a score of 12+1 6-sided dice(1d6) for the remaining 5 ability scores.

Player characters get a +1 to all abilities at 11th and 21st level.
In addition, they get a +1 to a chosen ability score at 11th and 21st.

Choose a race.
Racial Bonuses are:
Dwarf +1 Strength, -1 Dexterity
Halfling -1 Strength, +1 Dexterity
Human +1 Wisdom, -1 to an ability
Elf +1 Intelligence, -1 Constitution
Custom Race +1 ability, -1 ability

Determine the Ability Modifier.
If the ability score is 8 or 9 the ability modifier is (-1), 10-11(0), 12-13(+1)
Add this ability modifier bonus to 1/2 the character's level.
A Strength of 30 would have a (+15 from half the levels +10 from other modifiers) Strength Modifier.

Choose a class.
Class Bonuses, Hit Points, Healing Surges, Level-Up Hit Points
Fighter +1 Strength, -1 Dexterity, Constitution score+12 hit points, 12 surges, +12 hit points every level-up
Rogue +1 Dexterity, -1 Constitution, Constitution score+10 hit points, 10 surges, +10 hit points every level-up
Cleric +1 Wisdom, -1 Intelligence, Constitution score+8 hit points, 8 surges, +8 hit points every level-up
Wizard +1 Intelligence, -1 Strength, Constitution score+6 hit points, 6 surges, +6 hit points every level-up
Custom Class +1 ability, -1 ability

Ranger=Fighter/Rogue, either Fighter or Rogue class bonuses, +11 hit points
Paladin=Fighter/Cleric, Fighter or Cleric bonuses, +10 hit points
Druid=Rogue/Wizard, Rogue or Wizard bonuses +9 hit points
Monk=Fighter/Wizard, Fighter or Wizard bonuses, +8 hit points

A maximum possible Strength ability roll would be 12(+1-6)+level-up(+1-4)+racial bonus(+1)+class bonus(+1)+skill/feat bonus(+1-3)+magic item/spell bonus(+1-3)=a potential ability of 30(+25)

The maximum possible strength based melee attack and damage would be 1d20+25 to hit 3d12+25 damage.

Roll a non-player-character.
Roll 3d6 for the ability scores.
Give no healing surge ability.
Hit points are give by the hit dice of +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, +1d10, or +1d12 per monster level.
Everything else is the same as rolling for a player character.

Leveling up to 11th level, the character's encounter powers all become at-wills, damage is increased to 2[w], burst
+1, range +1 square, target 2 adjacent foes or help 2 allies, etc.. power damage and effects can be reduced and
triggered.

Leveling up to 21st level, the character's daily powers become at-wills, damage is increased to 3[w], burst +2
squares, range +2 squares, target 3 adjacent foes or help 3 allies, powers can be made permanent.

 

[YRUSirius]

I don't like the 'tier' bonuses on the 11th and 21st level. It just makes the numbers bigger without any need. We'll have a flatter math baseline anyways, so just leave this out.

ability roll 12(+1-6)+level-up(+4)+racial bonus(+1)+class bonus(+1)+skill/feat bonus(+1-3)+magic item/spell bonus

Did you notice that these characters won't be able to have any penalties? I want character penalties back. . 1E and 2E had them, 3E less and 4E kinda abandoned them completely.

-YRUSirius

 

[JRRNeiklot]

30th level? A week. A day at best. 30th level should be epic.

 

[Mengu]

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level character to kill a 30th level monster?

Minion/Grunt/Goon/Mook/Whatever: 1 round, for any PC
Standard/Average/Moderate/Whatever: 3-4 rounds for a PC that focuses on dealing lots of damage, 5-6 rounds for everyone else.
Elite/Tough/Named/Whatever: 7-8 rounds if it's mono-a-mono, for a PC that focuses on dealing lots of damage, 10-11 rounds for everyone else.
Solo/Avatar/Holy Cow/Whatever: Not applicable. You can't beat them one on one.

How many rounds would it take for a 30th level monster to kill a 30th level character?

1-3 rounds. If the monster failed to do that, the monster isn't going to win the fight of attrition because PC's always have more resources.

rounds, a 1st level character to kill a 1st level monster?

Minion/Grunt/Goon/Mook/Whatever: 1 round, for any PC
Standard/Average/Moderate/Whatever: 2-3 rounds for a PC that focuses on dealing lots of damage, 3-4 rounds for everyone else.
Elite/Tough/Named/Whatever: 4-5 rounds if it's mono-a-mono, for a PC that focuses on dealing lots of damage, 6-7 rounds for everyone else.
Solo/Avatar/Holy Cow/Whatever: Not applicable. You can't beat them one on one.

rounds, a 1st level monster to kill a 1st level character?

1-2 rounds. If the monster failed to do that, the monster isn't going to win the fight of attrition because PC's always have more resources.

How many rounds of combat do players play before they start to get tired of it?

Depends... There can't be a set number for this. I've had a thoroughly enjoyable 20 round combat, and I've had many utterly boring 2-3 round combats. It's all in the encounter design and PC resources. I'd be happy with most combats varying between 4-8 rounds.

What should be the highest maximum hit points of a character?

Don't care, it's all numbers on a paper.

Of a monster?

Don't care, it's all numbers on a paper.

What should be the highest maximum ability scores, modifiers and level-up bonuses?

Don't care, it's all numbers on a paper.

What should be the range of feat bonuses to ability scores?

Huh? I don't think I understand. I'm gonna say none.

What should be the maximum magical bonus from magical items?

To hit, none, to damage, don't care, it's just numbers on a paper.

What should be the maximum damage of a power?

Don't care, it's all numbers on a paper.