Pathfinder 1E Are there compelling reasons to upgrade to PF1 from 3.0?

[payn]

Character creation in 2E requires more choices and more calculation than in PF 1. First you pick an ancestry, and get a heritage. Apply ability boosts. Background, apply ability boosts. Class, apply ability boost. Here's three different funnels of feats you need to understand by level 2. Also, here's a side system that uses those feats to create archetypes, and here's additional heritages you can swap in. Smooth, I guess, once you are used to it. I was really struck, making my first few 2e characters, how involved character creation actually is.

Na, it really isnt. The A,B,C if you follow the book seems complicated, but you should quickly realize regardless of choices there is really only 2-3 stat arrays worth having. You dont need to understand the feats, unlike PF1, until you need to take them. They are all placed in respective buckets (skill, class, ancestry, multi, archetype) and marked by level. For example, at level 2 you take a class feat and have an option list of 3-5 feats to choose from. Simple. Next a skill feat, which again, is limited by level so you have a choice from a list of 3-5 or so.

Leveling up is almost as fast as 5E. If you are familiar with PF1 then it will be a cake walk. A new player might be swimming a bit, but the way its structured shouldn't be too difficult to grasp. Multiclassing and archetype simply replace your class feat at the time of taking and is completely optional for first timers. The most popular house rule in PF2 is the free archetype where players get them anyways, but thats for folks off to the races.

Im not saying there isnt a lot of choices to make at level 1 in PF2, there is, but its much simpler than PF1 where you can take numerous ancestry options, class archetypes, traits and feats not bound by level, etc..

 

[GuardianLurker]

A point. But just picks - not calculations, which makes it easier. Also, I've found the feat system in PF2e is very forgiving. Just about all of them are useful in immediate ways, and just about all of the feats are useful through a character's entire career. Unlike 3.x you don't need to plot out your advancement to get a functioning character. And if you miss a feat (e.g. You want Holistic Healing and forgot to pickup Treat Condition), you aren't set back half your adventuring career fixing it.

I general, one of the things I like about PF2e is that even the "vanilla" stuff is pretty interesting; I don't feel like the "shiny" stuff is necessary, just fun.

 

[pawsplay]

Na, it really isnt.

Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing that up.

The A,B,C if you follow the book seems complicated, but you should quickly realize regardless of choices there is really only 2-3 stat arrays worth having.

Which are? And how does someone come by this knowledge? Are you sure?

You dont need to understand the feats, unlike PF1, until you need to take them.

... which is first level, particularly if you're human.

They are all placed in respective buckets (skill, class, ancestry, multi, archetype) and marked by level. For example, at level 2 you take a class feat and have an option list of 3-5 feats to choose from. Simple. Next a skill feat, which again, is limited by level so you have a choice from a list of 3-5 or so.

Which is about two to four times as many choices as a PF 1 character generally makes. For instance, a Pathfinder 1e human fighter picks one any feat, and one combat feat. A PF2 fighter picks one heritage, one human ancestry feat (which could be a class or skill feat, if they take those options), one background (which comes with a feat), and one fighter feat.

Leveling up is almost as fast as 5E.

Sure. As noted above, the complexity levels off quickly, but it starts big.

 

[payn]

Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing that up.

You're welcome.

Which are? And how does someone come by this knowledge? Are you sure?

Going through the process as a party once, and/or a quick google search. Yes, i'm sure. Its the worst kept secret in....anything.

... which is first level, particularly if you're human.

On this point I was unclear. You dont need to know dozens of feat chains and that taking X feat might not allow Y feat, but is required for Z feat. You only need to examine level 1 feat buckets and then worry about the next level ones when you get there. The designers have taken away the free for all approach of PF1.

Which is about two to four times as many choices as a PF 1 character generally makes. For instance, a Pathfinder 1e human fighter picks one any feat, and one combat feat. A PF2 fighter picks one heritage, one human ancestry feat (which could be a class or skill feat, if they take those options), one background (which comes with a feat), and one fighter feat

All these choices are bucketed and when combined with feat levels is easy to parse. Unlike PF1 where you may make a few less choices but need to be aware of how those choices will impact level 3, 5, 7, ...20. You dont have this worry in PF2. Also, in PF1 you can not only be multiclassed by level 2, you can also have two different archetypes. Not possible to achieve that level of complexity in PF2.

Sure. As noted above, the complexity levels off quickly, but it starts big.

Agreed.

 

[pawsplay]

All these choices are bucketed and when combined with feat levels is easy to parse. Unlike PF1 where you may make a few less choices but need to be aware of how those choices will impact level 3, 5, 7, ...20.

In PF2, you have to parse how each of several layered choices will affect you at ... level 1. A PF2 character at level 1 has about the same number of free choices as a PF1 character at level 3. It's kind of silly to note how many archetypes a PF1 character might have, when every few levels, a PF2 character gets another class feat which is essentially the same as picking an archetype feature. Class feats are just modular class features, and hence, are just roll-your-own archetypes.

So, while I would say PF2 is generally less complex, I think it's misleading to say it's just simpler. I think it's misleading to say instead of going from 3.5 to PF1, you should go to PF 2, because it's simpler. Characters in 3.5 have, if anything, less free choices, and hence less complexity for the first few levels. And 3.0? The 3.0 ranger has about a third of the complexity of a standard PF2 ranger.

 

[payn]

In PF2, you have to parse how each of several layered choices will affect you at ... level 1. A PF2 character at level 1 has about the same number of free choices as a PF1 character at level 3. It's kind of silly to note how many archetypes a PF1 character might have, when every few levels, a PF2 character gets another class feat which is essentially the same as picking an archetype feature. Class feats are just modular class features, and hence, are just roll-your-own archetypes.

So, while I would say PF2 is generally less complex, I think it's misleading to say it's just simpler. I think it's misleading to say instead of going from 3.5 to PF1, you should go to PF 2, because it's simpler. Characters in 3.5 have, if anything, less free choices, and hence less complexity for the first few levels. And 3.0? The 3.0 ranger has about a third of the complexity of a standard PF2 ranger.

We are not going to agree here. You seem to be missing the number of choices for the complexity of those choices.

 

[CapnZapp]

I’m still running a 3.0 game. I never updated to 3.5. I didn’t see the point. 3.5 seemed too similar to buy the core books all over again - plus it seemed like they were trying to be more tactical and less theatre of the mind in 3.5.

But if PF1 is less complex that 3.0, I’d certainly be open to upgrading.

PF1 is to 3.5 what 3.5 was to 3.0.

In both cases, some genuine rules upgrades are bundled together with a large amount of two things:
a) changes for changes sake
b) pure power upgrades

Get PF1 for the supplements and not to have to do conversions.

Which us exactly the same reason anyone would get 3.5: for the supplements and not have to do conversions.

Both WotC and Paizo claimed 3.5 and PF1 "fixed" the previous iteration but that's mostly hot air.

PF1 is not simpler. It is the third iteration of the d20 engine and had the exact same systemic flaws and every other iteration of d20.

 

[Thomas Shey]

All these choices are bucketed and when combined with feat levels is easy to parse. Unlike PF1 where you may make a few less choices but need to be aware of how those choices will impact level 3, 5, 7, ...20. You dont have this worry in PF2. Also, in PF1 you can not only be multiclassed by level 2, you can also have two different archetypes. Not possible to achieve that level of complexity in PF2.

This isn't entirely true with class feats, as some have others as pre-reqs, so you can occasionally find yourself at the top of the progression limited to feats you aren't really interested in. (I just hit this with my 19th level Gunslinger a few weeks ago). On the other hand, that's usually an issue with higher level feats some people may never hit, and the lower level ones you chose will usually matter to you for a much longer period in any case, so...

 

[Thomas Shey]

We are not going to agree here. You seem to be missing the number of choices for the complexity of those choices.

Yeah, honestly, in most cases you're just working your way up columns, and there's no reason to believe the column that interests you at the bottom will somehow stop at 8th or 10th level.

 

[CapnZapp]

I would strongly caution against Pathfinder 2.

It is a very different game and engine than 3.0/3.5/PF1. Completely incompatible. Not only stats and numbers, but the entire rhythm and flow of adventures is different. Much like 4E D&D, a PF2 adventure is immediately recognizable as such, and you cannot easily use a d20 module with either 4E or PF2, or either a 4E or a PF2 module with any other system.

PF2's core combat engine is elegant, but Paizo heaps a truckload of wonky, over engineered, or simply trash subsystems on top.

PF2 characters are incredibly tied down, and you can't come even close to the customization freedom of 3.0/3.5/PF1.

PF2 puts the quest for balance first and foremost. Similarly to 4E, this results in characters not allowed to meaningfully deviate from the expected power grade. PF2 us a game where you are supposed to be grateful for getting a +1 bonus to an incredibly specialized niche, and even then, it only applies on a Thursday if you wear yellow pants.

I would emphatically recommend against PF2 if you're happy with 3.0.

PF1, on the very different other hand, however, will feel exactly like 3.0 just with a different set of splatbooks.