The Berserker - need balance advice

[Nyaricus]

hello everyone!!

first off, let me say that i am currently creating and DMing a low-magic campaign (called Ascension - Paths of Power) and i am mainly inspired from 1) JRR Tolkien and 2) real-world concepts of monsters, classes, etc. i dont like the idea of the barbarian from the PHB, because they are (poorly) based off of the Berserkers of Norse tradition, but its kinda like a universal class for any sort of primative culture/race. Also, many of the abilities are poorly chosen. why on Earth should a primative individual have Trap Sense? because out in their barren homeland deep in the pits of their jungle (yeah, viking-orcs now live in the amazon rainforest) they obviously come across many "Flaming Lawn Darts" traps every other day. Also, the fast movement gained doesnt make any sense. Quite simple, Nordic peoples were taller, and thus moved much faster that other human ethnic groups. That, and the fact that the Vikings were a raiding civilization. they needed to strike fast, kill and loot, and then get the hell outta there. thus, the fast movement is kinda overdone. finally the barbarian rages too many times per day, and doesnt have enough Damage reduction

That said, Tolkien doesnt really have any true Berserkers in his campaign (the closest thing being those wild men from the southern woods and Beorn) so, i went right to the source > the tales of the Berserkers from the Nordic Sagas.

Berserkers are some of the most terrifying warriors you may ever have to face (or play ) they rely on going into a terrifying rage (called, in truth, a Berserkergang, but for simplification is just called a "rage" here) in which they go nuts, and rush into battle bare-chested, swinging with all their might at their foes untill they collapse from exhastion or kill all their enemies. They seems to be immune to weapons, and to shrug off hits that would kill another man, they were daunting in apperance, and faced rejection in their commuties due to their terrifying rages, and thus formed groups of Berserkers, and were sometimes employed to be "shock troops" by certain kings/leaders in and around Europe (one had a bunch in constantinople at one time, if i remember this all correctly, cus this is mostly off the top of my head ). Also, Beserkers in general belonged to cults of war-gods (although they hardly had any powers originating from their gods, keep in mind that for RPing purposes, they might consider their DR, etc, as gifts bestowed to them by their gods) and that will come into play for my Berserkers' Prestigue Class (but more later on that)

so, to sum this all up, here is my . . .

BERSERKER CLASS

HD = d12
BAB = HD (as fighter)
Good Fort, bad Ref and Will
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Religion), Survival, Swim
Number of Skills at 1st level (2+Int mod)x4, 2+Int mod after that
Alignment: must be chaotic (good, neutral or evil)

For standard weapon and armour proficiencies, he get all simple and martial weapons except as follows: no katars (punching daggers), crossbows or kukris. This is for flavour, and i am sure someone will complain, esp. about the crossbows.

proficients in all shields (except tower shields). Also, Shields are generally wooden, if they arent using a two handed weapon. For armour, the Berserker gets proficiencies in no armour except as follows: Berserkers (and Berserkers only) may use wolf or bear skins as armour. their stats are as follows:

Bear -or- Wolf Hide Armour
light armour | +2 Armour | Max Dex = +5 | AC check penalty = -1 | Arcane SpF = 15%
speed = no ajustment | weight = 15 pounds | cost = 10 gp | hardness/hp = 4/30

If you are like me and using the Weapon Group Proficencies (from Unearthed Arcana), he gets Basic Weapons and any 3 others, plus the Armour and Shields mentioned above

1 Rage 1/day
2
3 Skill Focus (Intimidate)
4 Damage Reduction 1/-
5 Rage 2/day
6
7 Intimidating Rage (see Complete Warrior book)
8 Damage Reduction 2/-
9 Rage 3/day
10
11 Improved Rage
12 Damage Reduction 3/-
13 Rage 4/day
14
15 Tireless Rage
16 Damage Reduction 4/-
17 Rage 5/day
18
19 Greater Rage
20 Damage Reduction 5/-

Now, for Rage Specifics: same as the PHB, except i renamed the rages to fit in with the "supposedly" standard names of progression. So the PHB "greater rage" is my improved rage, and the PHB "mighty rage" is my greater rage. also, the Berserkers Damage reduction is times by 1.5 while in a rage. Round down (ie, a level 6 Berserker has a DR of 3/-. when he rages, that is increased but 1.5, so he gets a DR of 4.5, or (rounded down) 4)

Anyways, write in, and tell me what you think, and suggestions for any balancing issue you may have found

---------------------------

some balance issuses which i have identifyed are:

1) possible alternative DR aquisition rates. (mine is 1 DR every two levels, and 1.5 times DR in a rage. Thoughts on this?)

2) when should the Berserker get Tireless Rage (barbarian gets it at level 17) and Indomidable Will (barbarian gets it at level 14)? I was thinking level 18 for T-Rage, and 15 for I-Will. thoughts on this?

3) Berserkers in Nordic Sagas, while in a rage, attacked everything in sight > rocks, trees, enemies, and even allies. Perhaps, for playability purposes, a Berserker could have a Will save to resist attacking allies. the DC could be 10 + number of rounds already spent in rage. This save would only apply if there are no other visible enemies left. thoughts on this?

>>>>i would appreciate all feedback on these, thanks

 

[Aus_Snow]

the fast movement gained doesnt make any sense.

Yeah, I get that. Scouts are cool with it though, I think.

Beserkers in general belonged to cults of war-gods (although they hardly had any powers originating from their gods, keep in mind that for RPing purposes, they might consider their DR, etc, as gifts bestowed to them by their gods) and that will come into play for my Berserkers' Prestigue Class (but more later on that)

Apparently, drugs had something to do with it, too. But yes, you're probably right about the war gods thing. There was a lot of that going around.

Number of Skills at 1st level (2+Int mod)x4, 2+Int mod after that

OK, less skills than the standard Barbarian. The reason being?

no katars, crossbows or kukris

What on this good Earth is a katar? Have I just forgotten something, or ...? Kukris: makes sense. As for crossbows, yes you're right - someone will complain, if only for the reason that you haven't gone far enough, perhaps. If you want to model them on something historical, why not go the whole hog and strip the weapons down to the realistic options only, giving them Weapon Proficiencies piecemeal? Just a thought.

1 Rage 1/day
2 Damage Reduction 1/-, Uncanny Dodge
3 Skill Mastery (Intimidate)
4 Damage Reduction 2/-
5 Rage 2/day
6 Damage Reduction 3/- Improved Uncanny Dodge
7 Intimidating Rage (see Complete Warrior book)
8 Damage Reduction 4/-
9 Rage 3/day
10 Damage Reduction 5/-
11 Improved Rage
12 Damage Reduction 6/-
13 Rage 4/day
14 Damage Reduction 7/-
15 Tireless Rage
16 Damage Reduction 8/-
17 Rage 5/day
18 Damage Reduction 9/-
19 Greater Rage
20 Damage Reduction 10/-

Wow, that's a lot of DR/-; that's my gut reaction. But then, why not I suppose. Indomitable Will not appealing for this variant? I mention it because it's the only rage-y thing you left off. Tireless Rage doesn't quite gel with your description earlier on (the "collapse from exhaustion" bit) - but I realise I could be taking things a bit literally.

the Berserkers Damage reduction is times by 1.5 while in a rage.

Wow, that's even more DR/-; that's me being stupid. Again, why not really.


Well, let's see (the points at variance with the Barbarian): they have less skill points, twice the DR, three times the DR when in Rage, no Indomitable Will (meh), Spot and Knowledge (religion) in place of Handle Animal and Ride, Rage 1 less time per day in the end, no illiteracy and no trap sense.

Is that about it? I think so. :\

Hm. Really, what leaps out at me is the DR and the skill points per level. It would have to be a case of whether 4+Int skp (compared to 2+Int) is worth having half to a third the DR (for Barbarians, this is).

Probably not, I would say, on the face of it. On the other hand, Monks and Favoured Souls (for example) do gain DR 10 at 20th level (but none before that) - though theirs is /magic and /silver or /cold iron respectively, not /-.

Finally, I'd have to say that the DR is too much, in my opinion.

 

[Nyaricus]

first off, you have some good, valid, comments, and i am tkaing them into consideration. But, one thing at a time . . . .

OK, less skills than the standard Barbarian. The reason being?

hmmm, i see what you mean here, and looking back over the skill list, i think it might be reasonable to just drop the listen and spot skills. The barbarian is supposed to be some sort of "wilderness-warrior" of a sort, and i guess i kinda shot myself in the foot with giving the berserker (a different type of fighter) spot and listen, like a standard barb.

What on this good Earth is a katar? Have I just forgotten something, or ...? Kukris: makes sense.

lol, sorry about that. in the PHB, a katar is what is common called a "punching dagger", but i use the book "From Stone to Steel" (this has to be my favourite book in my collection yet) and so i use all my weapons from there, and the terms as well (which is why i used "katar").

As for crossbows, yes you're right - someone will complain, if only for the reason that you haven't gone far enough, perhaps. If you want to model them on something historical, why not go the whole hog and strip the weapons down to the realistic options only, giving them Weapon Proficiencies piecemeal? Just a thought.

well, i personally suggest those of you who havent seen the Unearthed Arcana Weapon Group profs to do so, and impliment them in your game (i do for even for my FRCS campaign i am DMing [look in the Races of Faerun book for ideas on weapon groups for characters from specifics areas/races], along with my own CS). as for not allowing crossbows, they do get martial weapon profs (using standard prof system), and with it access to might composite longbows, and with all the points they will put into str, itll balance out not allowing crossbow profs. If they use weapon prof groups, many throwing weapons are availiable that they will get their weapon focus applied to if their main weapon is from the same group (ie a guy who uses a great axe carries around soem throwing axes) or he can, with his 3 weapon group choices, snap up the bow-group weapons as one of his choices.

note: edited to clarify points

Wow, that's a lot of DR/-; that's my gut reaction. But then, why not I suppose.

okay, i suppose i should clarify a few things here (and also remember that i am using that From Stone To Steel book) Berserkers went bare-chested into battle. for gaming purposes, i allow my guys to use any light or medium non-metallic armor (there are a few reasonable ones in terms of stats in my book, i might end up posting them if requested) the DR picks up where the armour should leave off. so maybe i should disallow all armor? They were supposed to just be able to ignore hits (meaning, they dint care if they did get hit) so would the said DR, no armours, and a d12 hit dice be appropriate? furthermore they were said to sometimes be wearing bear or wolf skins, so maybe that could be made into Berserker-only light armour?

note: i have now implimented differnt armour profs; see main entry.

also, the Barbarian and Berserker get The two uncanny Dodge feats (which helps them keep dex bonuses), so keep that in mind

Indomitable Will not appealing for this variant? I mention it because it's the only rage-y thing you left off.

well . . . . i dunno, it just didnt seem all that important, and they do already get a +2 bonus while in rage, so i dont think they need +4. If anyone thinks thats a major balance issue, tell me. maybe just give it your your Berserkers at level 15, and set the Tireless Rage (note a level 17 barb ability) to level 18 (since my Berserker is more "realistic", if i can use that term for a game ), or just keep em both at 15?

comments here would help

Tireless Rage doesn't quite gel with your description earlier on (the "collapse from exhaustion" bit) - but I realise I could be taking things a bit literally.

well, game balance is the biggest issue here. in our history, berserkers had a generally "short" adventuring career. so i think it would be fair to those who gain a high level in this class to eventually ignore the fatigue bit > even if you didnt have the tireless rage, a spell or two would fix em right up at that level. i am jst trying to create a fun, reality-based class. as stated before, i am thining of setting it at level 18 instead, and bringin back Indomidable will at 15

still would like some feedback on where to put Indom Will (i'm considering level 15 and Tireless Rage (i'm considering level 17 or 18)

Well, let's see (the points at variance with the Barbarian): they have less skill points, twice the DR, three times the DR when in Rage, no Indomitable Will (meh),
Spot and Knowledge (religion) in place of Handle Animal and Ride, Rage 1 less time per day in the end, no illiteracy and no trap sense.

well, look at it this way . . .

Barbarian (at level 20)..................Berserker (at level 20)
Mighty Rage 6/day...........................Greater Rage 5/day
Illiteracy....................................... Illiteracy (i will edit this into the main entry)
fast movement................................-
uncanny dodge................................uncanny dodge
trap sense + 6.................................-
Improved Uncanny Dodge..................Improved Uncanny Dodge
DR 5/-...........................................DR 10/-
-..................................................DR 15/- (raging only)
Indomidable Will...............................-
Tireless Rage...................................Tireless Rage
-................................................... skill Mastery (intimidate)
-.................................................. Intimidating Rage

Barbarian 4+Int mod for skills (same except for Listen, 9 skills total)
Berserker 2+int mod for skills (same except for Lore (Religion), dropping Listen and Spot, adding back Handle Animal and Ride, 9 skills total)

so, each give up 3 things each, mine rages once less per day, but in each of his five rages, he gets 1.5 times the DR (which isnt that big of a deal at level 20) he moves slower (less combat manuverability) he doesnt have trap sense (which, by level 20, is a well developed skill, so a good compensation for better DR) and he gets a couple of feats revolving around his reputation of being a fearful warrior, and has less skills. i dunno, other than the armour issue, and the levels of certain (higher level) abilities, i think this is pretty balanced.

again, comments would help greatly

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The idea of early DR and no armor reminds me of the Iron Heroes Berserker class. In Iron Heroes, armor grants DR, and Berserkers gain no armor profiency but innate DR (that is approximately as good as DR of medium armor).

Otherwise, I don´t know what to add - I prefered the Barbarian having more skill points and a good class skill list, but I always disliked the laughable DR.

 

[Nyaricus]

The idea of early DR and no armor reminds me of the Iron Heroes Berserker class. In Iron Heroes, armor grants DR, and Berserkers gain no armor profiency but innate DR (that is approximately as good as DR of medium armor).

hmmm, interesting system, but i go for armor=part of your ac, but do you have a link for the Iron Heroes? is it an online campaign, or a book?

thanks

 

[Nyaricus]

okay, i looked up in the MM, and both Bears and Wolves have NA of +2, so should they only have armour proficiency in those? +2 AC seems pretty fair, and better than nothing. comments please

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

hmmm, interesting system, but i go for armor=part of your ac, but do you have a link for the Iron Heroes? is it an online campaign, or a book?

thanks

It is a alternate player handbook by Malhavoc Press, written by Mike Mearls. You should find a few posts in the D20 Systems forum and a link to the product and a (official) site dedicated to it below:
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL
http://www.iron-league.com/

 

[Nyaricus]

thanks for the links, i dont have the time now, but i will check them later .

btw, to the rest of you who are looking > cmon, no comments? :\ :\ hrmph!

 

[Raven Crowking]

thanks for the links, i dont have the time now, but i will check them later .

btw, to the rest of you who are looking > cmon, no comments? :\ :\ hrmph!

Just found it.

Like yourself, I can be a bit vexed by the lack of comments a lovingly created and generously shared piece of work can bring.

Anyway, I am doing a complete rewrite of the rules for my own campaign, picking and choosing all of the little options that are possible with a few years of third-party d20 sourcebooks out there, the EnWorld forums as a source, and my own creativity. And, suprise surprise, I am currently working on the classes.

Like you, I decided that the barbarian had to go in favour of a berserker class. I decided that berserker would be a 10-level prestige class, though. (Paladin and bard also made the move to prestige class.) I hadn't decided on the exact changes I would make. However, I have bookmarked this thread, and will probably use the first ten levels of your build.

Trying to tone down the goofy, computer-game quality of D&D's current incarnations while at the same time keeping the game both fun and flavourful is a pretty steep task. Thanks for your help with it!


RC

 

[Nyaricus]

Like you, I decided that the barbarian had to go in favour of a berserker class. I decided that berserker would be a 10-level prestige class, though.

you know, i fought with the same thing myself > but you see, the berserkers of nordic sagas were supposedly able to shapechange into wolves or bears via the donning of said animals skins, and that, along with all their other abilities, seemed to be too much. I am going to be posting soon, on this very thread, the exact mechanics of this PrC, but first i need the mechanics worked out for the base class > otherwise, the PrC could be changed in profound ways. The most i can say for now is stay tuned

Paladin and bard also made the move to prestige class

i posted on another thread that i wanted to make a diiferent bard > think you could post yours up in another thread? i would be really interested in seeing that, because bards should be, (at least according to what i have reseached on them in a variety of encyclopedias) a PrC. thanks if you can

I hadn't decided on the exact changes I would make. However, I have bookmarked this thread, and will probably use the first ten levels of your build.

go for it, if you are sure you want the berserker to be a PrC, but like i said, i have a berserkers-only PrC that i will be posting soon.

Trying to tone down the goofy, computer-game quality of D&D's current incarnations while at the same time keeping the game both fun and flavourful is a pretty steep task. Thanks for your help with it!

thank you for the feedback, its nice to know that i am doing something right, and from the cooments i ahve already got, it seems there are only a few balance issues left > do you have any specific problems with this base class RC??