The Berserker - need balance advice

[Nyaricus]

okay, here is my thoughts on DR. You guys have been telling me all along that it's too much, and this has gotten me thinking about it. See, i wnt this balanced against core classes (and follow me closely here, please).

What i am thinking is that level 2 is too fast to get a rage/day and DR of 1/-. So, since fighters get their prized Weapon Spec at level 4, that is when the DR will start, increasing by 1 every 4 levels > 2/- @ 8th, 3/- @12th, 4/-@ 16th, and finally 5/- @ 20th. instead of 1 1/2 times DR in a rage, it will be 2 times (so at 20th level, it will be DR 10 in a rage).

I am also thnking that the Uncanny Dodge line of abilities are a must-keep.

Thoughts on this?

(i'd add more, but i am so tired right now. Tomorrow night, i promise you a full report on where i think this class is, and what it should do).

 

[Nyaricus]

As for your Bear Berserker. Which type of Bear are you talking about? In Complete Warrior, there is "Bear Warrior" that can take a bear form while in rage (i think) and as you progress in lvl, you first start at Black, then Brown and Dire (Which I think gives +16 to STR) and I think all your magic items meld onto you fo you don't have to deal with your sweater that your dear aunt Sally gave you not fitting.

I am just gonna respond to this for now (sorry, i will get to the rest tomorrow) but yeah, it's a black bear (medium size) and The Bearsark gains only what the entry says. To reiterate (i bolded the most relevant info:

Bear/Wolf Shape I (Su): At first level, a B/U may use a Rage attempt per day to instead shape-change into a fearsome bear or feral wolf. This uses a varient of the polymorph spell (and the druids wildshape class ability). First: the Bearsark. A Bearsark shape-changes into a black bear (medium size). While in this form, he gains +6 Str and +4 Con, but retains his own Int, Wis and Cha scores. A Bearsark also gains +10 feet of movement, +2 Natural Armour, low-light vision, the scent ability, a +4 racial bonus on swim checks, two claw attacks (1d4 damage), a bite attack (1d6 damage) and the Run feat. The Ulfhednar shape-changes into a Wolf (medium size). While in that form, the Ulfhednar gains +6 Dex and +4 Con but retains his own Int, Wis and Cha. An Ulfhednar also gains +20 feet of movement, +2 Natural Armour, low-light vision, the scent ability, a +4 racial bonus on survival checks made while using scent, a bite attack (1d6 damage), the Track feat and the wolves Trip (ex) ability.
Unlike the polymorph spell, the B/U doesn't regain HP after he has shapechanged, and this change lasts for a 1/2 hour per Bearsark/Ulfhednar level. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action that doesn't provoke an Attack of Oppertunity. The B/U cannot speak in its new form.

 

[Sigurd]

It occurs to me that the historic berzerker is often portrayed in a religeous extasy. They had handlers who helped whip them up into a frenzy and who often kept normal people away from them to prevent bloodshed. They may have had special drugs to help prolong their rage. Norse tales include stories of Berzarks who raged uncontrollably and killed locals. They were a double edged sword.

I don't think this is a class of compromise.

I'd suggest it be tied to, or receive a bonus from a rage friendly diety. Since in D&D gods demonstratably exist I'd give them the magic ability to gain nutrition and vitality from their first kill while raged. Not like a vampire but like a divine extasy with real affects.

SU> At 3rd level a Bearzerks commitment to battle is so complete that it can sustain his physical needs. Any combat while raged effectively supplies the food and water requirement for a number of days equal to the number of foes faced. These days may be stored to a number equal to the characters level plus his str bonus. A Bearzerk living only on these reserves functions at -1 to all rolls unless he has fought that day.


Cleric Feat: Handle Bearzerks

This feat is available to clerics of any Norse Diety or any Diety known to imploy Bearzerkers.

A priest learns the nature and care of Berzerker Gangs.
He receives a +1 bonus to his heal spells with Berzerks in his care.
+3 diplomacy check with all Bearzerks.
And may add Bearzerks to his entourage if using the leadership feat.

Improved Handle Bearzerks
Prereq - see above.

As above but a cleric learns to cloud the minds of his berzerkers, filling them with rage and directing their attacks more precisely. The Berserks function under a holy compunction. Each may rage for an additional number of rounds equal to the cleric's level. Under this control a berzerk may act against his alignment even kill targets close to him.

Clerics also receive a challenged save role to break a bearzerk rage with a mental command.


Sigurd

 

[Balgus]

Cleric Feat: Handle Bearzerks

This feat is available to clerics of any Norse Diety or any Diety known to imploy Bearzerkers.

A priest learns the nature and care of Berzerker Gangs.
He receives a +1 bonus to his heal spells with Berzerks in his care.
+3 diplomacy check with all Bearzerks.
And may add Bearzerks to his entourage if using the leadership feat.

Improved Handle Bearzerks
Prereq - see above.

As above but a cleric learns to cloud the minds of his berzerkers, filling them with rage and directing their attacks more precisely. The Berserks function under a holy compunction. Each may rage for an additional number of rounds equal to the cleric's level. Under this control a berzerk may act against his alignment even kill targets close to him.

Clerics also receive a challenged save role to break a bearzerk rage with a mental command.

This reminds me of Lodoss Wars. Towards the end when they meet Orson, the Bereserker of Hyuuri. Man- that guy is the Ultimate berserker- and one I hope I never have to face in a game. He tore through mountains with his freakin sword. And yes- he was uncontrollable- even to his ... lady friend.

But I tried pitching something lik ethat to my DM and he shot it right down- TOO POWERFUL. and he was right. There is no way I could try to make that balanced. The STR is too massive and as long as my party stays hidden in the trees, combat will be over in three rounds- one per enemy. And the mage can lob MM from th ebranches and everyone will be a ranger. End of story.

***I f youand your DM can come to a concensus on a list of class abilities for your campaign, Kudos.

 

[Nyaricus]

Consider yourself reported to a mod. Not attacking me, indeed.

(Sorry bout that Plane Sail, I was just really peeved there, and I basically sent the same thing to a mod [at least i hope it worked] anyways . . . i agree, let's just get back to the point at hand here, shall we? No point in continuing on with this.)

Nyaricus - out.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Nyaricus - the appropriate thing to do is to report it to the moderators and then let us handle it - not to shoot back yourself.

Balgus - "On a more personal note (hope you take offense)" - Completely inappropriate. We don't like to see people being personal, and we certainly don't want to see posters attempting to deliberately offend other people.

Please will you both edit your posts and return to mutual civility.

Regards,

 

[Nyaricus]

BTW, Neat feats Sigurd! Sorry i didn't say it sooner, but i like them . . must be some way to incorperate them into my game Later!

 

[Aus_Snow]

On a whim, I decided to look into this area a bit (via net, not books - I have no book for this, as it stands ), and well, based on a few scraps of info I came across, I thought I'd ask a couple of questions about your Berserker class - also, they might relate to your PrC's hereabouts.

Are/were you planning on symbolising their dedication to Odin (or a similar deity, perhaps), assuming they'd retain that aspect?

Will/should the inability to differentiate friend from foe feature at all?

Most significantly perhaps, what do you envision as being the source of the Berserker's Rage ability? I ask this, because apparently there are a number of opinions (both scholarly and not so) floating around regarding that very question. Let's see: The power of their god, is one; drugs of one kind or another (most likely courtesy of fungus); strong liquor (possibly with other dubious substances tossed or brewed in); ritual dance / frenzy / 'autohypnosis' effects; and lastly (that I've came across so far) being possessed by a wolf or bear spirit - deliberately, it would be fair to assume, I think.


If these kinds of questions/issues are of any use at all to you, I'll try to provide more Q and/or A soon.

Cheers, and best of luck with it all, either way.




disclaimer -- if I've somehow managed to miss an important post, or part thereof, and have therefore gone off on a completely redundant path, just let me know.

 

[Nyaricus]

Thanks for the Q and A man!

disclaimer -- if I've somehow managed to miss an important post, or part thereof, and have therefore gone off on a completely redundant path, just let me know.

Aus Snow, thanks for taking the time to actually look up a few details of Berserkers . . . I really appreciate in-depth criticism by someone who has actually checked out this subject. Here's the webpage where i got all of my info for the Berserker Class and Bearsark/Ulfhednar PrC. I would have posted up this link long before, but i was on a different computer at the time, and only had notes from 2 years ago to wrok from (notes taken from this site, of course). Anyways http://www.florilegium.org/files/NORSE/Berserkergang-art.html will help people a long way to understading where i am coming from for this class and PrC's. Actually, looking at it a bit more, i realise that there are a few details that i may have left out frmo this concpet, as my notes were quite old and perhaps over generalised. I will have to go through and ensure everything is on the smae page. Feel free to take the initiative yourself though, as i always like other opinions.

On a whim, I decided to look into this area a bit (via net, not books - I have no book for this, as it stands ), and well, based on a few scraps of info I came across, I thought I'd ask a couple of questions about your Berserker class - also, they might relate to your PrC's hereabouts.

Thanks for the questions! Hope you chekc out that link i posted, as it has TONS of info on Berserkers. Also helps define the thin line between a "standard" Berserker and Bearsarks and Ulfhednars.

Are/were you planning on symbolising their dedication to Odin (or a similar deity, perhaps), assuming they'd retain that aspect?

Yes. That's why Know: Religion is on thier skill list, and why there are prereqs in place for the PrC's associated with this class. Their dedication to their god(s) were noteworthy - esp Odin (in one spelling of his name or another).

Will/should the inability to differentiate friend from foe feature at all?

I suggested a mechanic about 2 months ago but got no fededback. I'd definitvely want to do this, but i need something that will A) be balanced and B) get easier with time (read: levels). But yeah, a class feature i'd like to include that i haven't is that.

Most significantly perhaps, what do you envision as being the source of the Berserker's Rage ability? I ask this, because apparently there are a number of opinions (both scholarly and not so) floating around regarding that very question. Let's see: The power of their god, is one; drugs of one kind or another (most likely courtesy of fungus); strong liquor (possibly with other dubious substances tossed or brewed in); ritual dance / frenzy / 'autohypnosis' effects; and lastly (that I've came across so far) being possessed by a wolf or bear spirit - deliberately, it would be fair to assume, I think.

Yes there were many opinions. Did you know that drugs were also the source for the word and concept of Assassins? Seems that hashish (from marijuana [sp?]) was eaten or something and got a bunch of Muslims really stoned, and they went around killing Christian Knights during the crusades - originally they were called Hashsassins, Later changed to the more easily pronouciable Assassins - and the practice spread throughtout Europe, although with more "hey lets kill and stuff" and less drugs.

But enough of the history lesson (for that stuff, anyways). I don't know if Berserkers did drugs or not - but i don't really want to bother with that stuff. That's still up in the air, anyways. The Power of their God, frenzy-ing up and possension by wolf and bear spirit are basically what are more appropriate IMO. Ritual Dance seems to be more of an RPing issue and autohypnosis seems a bit . . hmm flimsy. But yeah, that's about what i am going for here - but that article through the previous link explains it better than i could.

If these kinds of questions/issues are of any use at all to you, I'll try to provide more Q and/or A soon.

Cheers, and best of luck with it all, either way.

These are very good and appropriate questions, and i greatly appreciate them They will really help flesh out this class and give you a better question - but if you got a half-hour, check out that link. It was so much help in crafting ths class and the PrC's.

Cheers back at you, and thanks so much!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Cool, I will check that one out.

I noticed another thing before - an account of the berserker being (partly or wholly) invulnerable to fire (as well as "iron": but DR /- covers that part perfectly). That came from one of the only 'ye olde dayes' literary accounts of berserkers in the Scandinavian area that I've managed to find - the Ynglinga Saga (c. 1225 CE), attributed to one Snorri Sturluson. Would some amount of resistance to fire be appropriate therefore, do you think? Maybe even some resistance to cold as well, to show their disdain of um, the cold? Either or both might be more 'authentic' whilst in the throes of Rage, rather than 'always on'. Then, on the other hand, it might be better represented by say, the Endurance feat. Or nothing at all - hey, it's your class! Just throwing a couple of ideas around.



edit --- I think Endurance is the better option, after having thought about it a bit. YMMV.