The Berserker - need balance advice

[Nyaricus]

Perhaps then Endurance and Diehard should be worked into class abilities? I wouldn't mind that at all - fit's the concept well enough and since they are Northerners (both IMC adn IRL) that would be cool with me.

 

[Nyaricus]

PS Aus Snow, do you have any links for stuff that i could see? i love to compare and contrast this stuff

night for now, i work in 8 hours.

 

[Aus_Snow]

How does a couple (or maybe a few) points of natural armour (by level 20) sound?

I honestly still think that the DR is a bit much as is, mind you. I also just realised that I have no idea what exactly you mean by Skill Mastery (Intimidate). Is it the high-level Rogue ability?

This would be my (tentative) take on the class (right this minute, anyway) :

The same, except for the changes below, adding Survival to the list of class skills, and keeping Rage as per the SRD. Perhaps also Int+4 skp. . . not sure. I'm trying to keep it close as I can to your model of the class, though.

1 Rage 1/day
2 Endurance
3 Diehard
4 Damage Reduction 1/-
5 Rage 2/day
6 Fearlessness +4
7 Intimidating Rage
8 Damage Reduction 2/-
9 Rage 3/day
10 Natural Armour +1
11 Greater Rage
12 Damage Reduction 3/-
13 Rage 4/day
14 Fearlessness +8
15 Tireless Rage
16 Damage Reduction 4/-
17 Rage 5/day
18 Natural Armour +2
19 Mighty Rage
20 Damage Reduction 5/-

Fearlessness (Ex): The Berserker, scorning fear as something possessed by lesser men, gains the indicated amount as an inherent bonus to all checks and saves concerning fear, morale etc.

Note: If the Berserker ever wears armour other than wolfskin or bearskin, they lose all DR and Natural Armour Bonus gained from this class, until they once again wear their preferred armour, or none.


Like I said, it's very tentative. Some of it looks a bit wrong, to be sure. But it's a bit closer to how I would personally prefer to implement a class like this, given essentially core D&D rules to base it on. Wish I could've squeezed Resistance to Cold and Fire in there somwhere. Bleh, I'll take another look when I'm not thoroughly tired. My apologies if none of this makes any sense at all.




edit --- oh, you wanted a link. it was basically the wiki for berserkers. check www.wikipedia.org - should be there.

 

[Nyaricus]

Aus Snow, first let me say thank you for you help . . . this has probably been my hardest thread to date. I was really rash (mainly because i was such a noob in the beggining) and stuff, and was basically flaming people. That was my bad. So thank you for getting past that and helping me with this class, and giving some critques and such for it. It's hard when I have this sort of version in my head, and yet i am trying to make it a very acessable and "generic" class - even though it obviously is a very specific one. I could see orcs (i personally make orcs and "goblinoids" one race, as it is in LotR), humans, lyncanthropes savage dwarves and pretty much any other race that favours Barbarian - even though this is intended for Humans (and Orcs, to a lesser degree).

Anyways, on to more specific matters . . .

How does a couple (or maybe a few) points of natural armour (by level 20) sound?

ugh . . . i am really up in the air about this. Now, presuming that @ level 4 a Berserker starts to gain DR, and eventuqally gets 5/- at level 20 (this is the preffered aquisition rate, at this time) and having it doubled in a rage ( i really think that DR should be better than what it is) I am not sure if adding in Natural Armour is balanced.

Cutting armours lowers Armour Class by 3 points - IIRC, the best armour a barb can get is Mithril Breastplate - that's +5, whereas a Berserker has +2 with his wolfskin or bearskin. since DR would be doubled in a rage (i really would like this kept in) I'd say that that would make up for lack of armour.

The whoel bit about "blades bounced off their flesh" and their "being able to sustain horrible wounds and keep on fighting" could both be veiwed as AC or DR issues - but I'd have to say Damage Reduction fits this much better.

I honestly still think that the DR is a bit much as is, mind you. I also just realised that I have no idea what exactly you mean by Skill Mastery (Intimidate). Is it the high-level Rogue ability?

oops. I meant Skill Focus (Intimidate) I will edit that

as for DR see above. I *think* it is balanced as it, what with getting rid of other abilities,a nd for fitting the theme.

This would be my (tentative) take on the class (right this minute, anyway) :

The same, except for the changes below, adding Survival to the list of class skills, and keeping Rage as per the SRD. Perhaps also Int+4 skp. . . not sure. I'm trying to keep it close as I can to your model of the class, though.

1 Rage 1/day
2 Endurance
3 Diehard
4 Damage Reduction 1/-
5 Rage 2/day
6 Fearlessness +4
7 Intimidating Rage
8 Damage Reduction 2/-
9 Rage 3/day
10 Natural Armour +1
11 Greater Rage
12 Damage Reduction 3/-
13 Rage 4/day
14 Fearlessness +8
15 Tireless Rage
16 Damage Reduction 4/-
17 Rage 5/day
18 Natural Armour +2
19 Mighty Rage
20 Damage Reduction 5/-

Fearlessness (Ex): The Berserker, scorning fear as something possessed by lesser men, gains the indicated amount as an inherent bonus to all checks and saves concerning fear, morale etc.

I like this - it fits them alot, and i'd keep, for sure.

Note: If the Berserker ever wears armour other than wolfskin or bearskin (or are wearing no armour at all), they lose all DR and Natural Armour Bonus gained from this class, until they once again wear their preferred armour, or none.

excellent addition!!!! This will get in for sure!!

Like I said, it's very tentative. Some of it looks a bit wrong, to be sure. But it's a bit closer to how I would personally prefer to implement a class like this, given essentially core D&D rules to base it on. Wish I could've squeezed Resistance to Cold and Fire in there somwhere. Bleh, I'll take another look when I'm not thoroughly tired. My apologies if none of this makes any sense at all.

I like your feedback man - you are giving me some new ideas which i didn't think of, or couldn't accept before. Thanks, can't wait for your feedback on this.

edit --- oh, you wanted a link. it was basically the wiki for berserkers. check www.wikipedia.org - should be there.

neat. I checked it out. Pretty much the same thing as what my site said, except more external links, and mine was a little more specific.

Anyways, thanks again!!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Hm. Yeh, on second thoughts (now I am fully awake), natural armour might be a bit bleh, or broken, not even sure what's worse.

More to the point, giving one of the other could be preferable to giving both.

So, more DR. . . and/or increased DR during Rage / Berserk / whatever it's to be called (!) . . .

You know, I think doubling it during Rage might be OK after all. You might want to disallow things like Extra Rage and suchlike, though. Dunno, could get out of hand, is all. Then again, berserking is (obviously!) such a focal point of their whole schtick kinda thing, I'm undecided on that.

If they are strongly tied to their 'sky god' (Odin, say) - or even a slightly similar figure - I can see a small amount of the appropriate Resistances (GM's discretion applies here, of course) being fine, too. Perhaps where natural armour was in that progression? For some unholy reason, Fire and Ice suggests itself as a label for that gift, until something better comes along (I pray).


Er, before I go rambling further, is any of this good. . . bad. . . ugly? Eh, nevermind. I'm in a rambling mood anyway. Besides which, I didn't get very far there.

What about some rituals (other than berserk/frenzy/rage? Maybe something that takes time, perhaps a skill check, even a small personal sacrifice of some kind? How does this sound for an alternative to douibling DR during Rage? Maybe there's an entirely separate ritual they can perform that doubles their DR temporarily, perhaps with a small drawback for a time afterwards? That way, Rage might be less 'broken' in terms of providing *all* things that they require, and it would allow full access to the various Rage-related abilities and feats etc., without the system suffering at all.

Hrm, come to think of it, there are other ways the class could be pushed, or nudged, that unfortunately would step all over the toes of your PrC's. Otherwise, they could be good.

Is the plan to use this as the base, and the PrC's as optional paths of specialisation and increased investment in their religion? Again, nevermind: I looked it up.

So, all in all, this base class should be primarily a straight warrior (barbarian-style) type, I take it. I wonder if there's a good way of 'foreshadowing' though. . . that is, hinting at elements of the PrC's without actually granting any of them to the Berserker. Minor aspects of wolf and/or bear, that kind of thing. While they might grant some small benefits to the PC, they could also add somewhat to the 'flavour'.

FUrther note: I think it should be wolf or bear, not "and/or", if you decide to use that idea. A berserker could decide (or have it decreed) right at the start (0 or 1st level) whether they are of Wolf or of Bear. That would then, of course, dictate the viable option of PrC between your two. As well as what skins they're wearing, for all that might or might not matter per se.