The Blood of Uncanny Monsters*

I think I get ya now. You're defining uncanny in an entirely game-oriented quantitative way. That wasn't what I was driving at myself, but I see your point.

No. I'm thinking about a fluff-oriented, qualitative way.

When you are Sigfried, and you only ever fight one or two dragons in your entire life, sure, the dragon is uncanny. But if you fight a dozen monsters a week, they're all going to blur together. Why is one of them uncanny, and another not. They both have weird powers beyond mortal ken, right? So why is one special? Did it happen touch the Great McGuffin Crystal, or something?

I don't require this be quantitative and game-oriented. I just require that it make some sort of sense in the game world.
 

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Pillaging corpses for alchemical ingredients is a time honored D&D tradition as well as a common trope of fantasy literature.

I think you have to be careful of several things:

1) Don't make every monster a walking potion. It's not so bad if the guy with some alchemy skill, a few herbs, and the brew potion feat can turn every corpse into a potion (in fact, that's kinda cool IMO), but if you don't need any skill to do it and the effects go beyond those of ordinary potions things can get out of hand in a hurry.
2) Don't leave the value of a corpse undefined and vague. Understand that if corpses become treasure, you need some idea of what you are actually handing out or else its quickly going to invalidate assumptions about PC wealth. For my part, I'd be more interested in a table that simply said, "Choice alchemical body parts and regeants, weight and value" and listed that for each relevant monster, so that I'd know that X lbs. of Manticore body parts was worth Y g.p. After that, a list of which potions corresponded to which monster body parts would be hand, that is just what can you make out of this stuff if you find yourself wanting to make a potion on the cheap.
3) Don't forget just how many monsters are out there. Don't make body part collection so important to the game that everyone is hauling around a couple hundred pounds of dissected corpses and embalming equipment. The system is supposed to be fun, and not a burden.
4) The general idea of a curse (or possibly positive effect) resulting from the death of a monster is a good one, but if you aren't careful its going to be a very unfun one. If every time you kill a monster, it results in a powerful curse, its just going to feel like the DM screwing the players after a while. In D&D, I think you have to make some distinction between 'ordinary' monsters, and 'monsters of Legend'. It's really those 'monsters of Legend', the ones that you've taken the trouble to name, give some history to, and perhaps even give a personality to that ought to be numinous, mysterious, and for which the PC's will accept that the death of the monster of legend is an epic event. The death of some lesser monster need not be accompanied by any great fanfare.
 
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No. I'm thinking about a fluff-oriented, qualitative way.

When you are Sigfried, and you only ever fight one or two dragons in your entire life, sure, the dragon is uncanny. But if you fight a dozen monsters a week, they're all going to blur together. Why is one of them uncanny, and another not. They both have weird powers beyond mortal ken, right? So why is one special? Did it happen touch the Great McGuffin Crystal, or something?

I don't require this be quantitative and game-oriented. I just require that it make some sort of sense in the game world.

Well, I think I'd leave that up to whoever is designing their world and game. Most worlds for instance have monsters and economic systems for instance, but the game rules don't tell you exactly how you must structure them. That's up to the individual game to decide. How you make sense of something, like the money system for instance, will depend on how the world is structured.


Pillaging corpses for alchemical ingredients is a time honored D&D tradition as well as a common trope of fantasy literature.

I think you have to be careful of several things:

1) Don't make every monster a walking potion. It's not so bad if the guy with some alchemy skill, a few herbs, and the brew potion feat can turn every corpse into a potion (in fact, that's kinda cool IMO), but if you don't need any skill to do it and the effects go beyond those of ordinary potions things can get out of hand in a hurry.
2) Don't leave the value of a corpse undefined and vague. Understand that if corpses become treasure, you need some idea of what you are actually handing out or else its quickly going to invalidate assumptions about PC wealth. For my part, I'd be more interested in a table that simply said, "Choice alchemical body parts and regeants, weight and value" and listed that for each relevant monster, so that I'd know that X lbs. of Manticore body parts was worth Y g.p. After that, a list of which potions corresponded to which monster body parts would be hand, that is just what can you make out of this stuff if you find yourself wanting to make a potion on the cheap.
3) Don't forget just how many monsters are out there. Don't make body part collection so important to the game that everyone is hauling around a couple hundred pounds of dissected corpses and embalming equipment. The system is supposed to be fun, and not a burden.
4) The general idea of a curse (or possibly positive effect) resulting from the death of a monster is a good one, but if you aren't careful its going to be a very unfun one. If every time you kill a monster, it results in a powerful curse, its just going to feel like the DM screwing the players after a while. In D&D, I think you have to make some distinction between 'ordinary' monsters, and 'monsters of Legend'. It's really those 'monsters of Legend', the ones that you've taken the trouble to name, give some history to, and perhaps even give a personality to that ought to be numinous, mysterious, and for which the PC's will accept that the death of the monster of legend is an epic event. The death of some lesser monster need not be accompanied by any great fanfare.

I wouldn't necessarily argue with any of that. Like so much in RPGs I'd leave the details to be worked out by the DM, GM, or game participants.

Of course when I made the thread the idea of monsters being far more truly dangerous was what I was shooting at. The idea of "monster taxidermy" hadn't even really entered my mind. Not as it seems to have been thought of here, more like a modern industrial exercise or occupation.

But of course other people will think of all kinds of things you didn't when you mention something. Some good, some bad, some just plain different than what you were thinking of.
 

There was a setting for 2e that differentiated monsters (and people) of legend from the common herd called "Birthright". In that campaign setting, there are both monsters and Monsters, and your ideas would be appropriate for the Monsters.

RCFG uses "champion class creatures" to denote beings in whom Fate or the Gods have taken a special interest. This includes, of course, all PCs, and whatever NPCs and monsters the GM desires. Your ideas would be appropriate for some champion class creatures in that system.

And, of course, some campaign milieus might use far fewer "monsters" than others.

Don't let herd mentality drag you down! :)


RC
 

Of course when I made the thread the idea of monsters being far more truly dangerous was what I was shooting at. The idea of "monster taxidermy" hadn't even really entered my mind. Not as it seems to have been thought of here, more like a modern industrial exercise or occupation.

I recognize that, but I was speaking as someone who had gone at least part way down this path before.

I think you recognize what you are trying to avoid when you say that the effects are not intended to be controllable, but I think that you'll find that when you systematize anything that it becomes controllable.

When you start talking about the body parts of slain monsters having magical effects, even if those effects are random, what you are in essence saying is that a monster drops random treasure. Indeed, we can call these corpses random magical items as they will, once you can figure out what they do and which are usuable and which are simply dangerous, will be used just like magic items. Indeed, figuring out what they do and which are usuable and which are simply dangerous in some ways merely returns magic items somewhat to their Gygaxian roots.

In a majority of groups I've played with, once it becomes clear that extra treasure is to be had in the form of body parts, the group will immediately begin taking steps to maximize that profit. With something like the system you describe it would be:

1) Prepare alot of detect curse, detect magic, and remove curse spells. Never underestimate the resourcefulness of PC's. Whatever barriers you try to erect to stop PC's from doing something generally not only prove insufficient, but generally convince the players that doing it is really worthwhile. It's like putting a big obviously hard to open door in a dungeon. The players will generally assume that the harder the door is to open, the more worthwhile it probably is to do so.
2) Try to convince you that identify and analyze dweomer spells will work on body parts, and if not rely on old fashioned trial and error techniques to identify things.
3) For any given monster, attempt multiple trials on body parts, hopefully trying to get you to make multiple random rolls for "The Blood, The Brains, The Eye or eyes, Tongue, The Horn or horns, The Scales, The Claws or nails, The Heart, etc." Each roll is essentially a random trip through the magic item tables. Some will turn out lethal, but some will turn out advantageous. The lethal or inconveinent will be identified and hopefully neutralized.
4) Learn taxidermy. Preserve as much of a corpse as possible to haul out of the wilderness to be sold or utilized at a later point. The problem is that while you never necessarily intend industrialized monster harvesting, your players live in a modern, industrial society, and are motivated strongly to maximize their character's power. Even good RPer's IME engage in at least a little min/maxing and survival mode behavior, if only because they love their characters and don't want to lose them.

The risk here of course is that in an attempt to make monsters more monsterous, numinous, and horrific, you'll just end up comoditizing them further. Certainly that's what happened to dragons in my campaign where I attempted something of the sort. It very much reminded me of this:

"Dragon whiskers and dragon toes
a dragon tooth and a dragon nose
Every little piece
Every little piece
We could make a million
by slicing him and dicing him

We could sell every little shell
There's enough of him to go around
Money, money and money
by the pound
Every little piece
Every little piece

I can take a scissor
and clip him up and rip him up
Every little part is a work of art
Think of what a dragon heart would bring
Wrapped up in a ribbon and a string

Dragon liver can cure a cold
dragon powder grows hair
With dragon blood you'll never grow old

Every item is covered with gold
Every item is covered with gold

Every little piece
Every little piece
Dragon you're my wagon to destiny
you're the key
Every little shred moving me ahead
Every dream of mine will be fulfilled
What a dragon business we can build

Dragon cartilage keeps you thin
dragon fat is for burns
a dragon tear will clear up your skin

Watch the profits come rolling in"
 

While it all sounds very nice, there's another drawback. If the blood of the monsters is for example, powerful but unholy, having possibly detrimental effects to people wouldn't it be bad for melee classes?

They're the ones that get splattered with blood because they're closer to the monster.
 

While it all sounds very nice, there's another drawback. If the blood of the monsters is for example, powerful but unholy, having possibly detrimental effects to people wouldn't it be bad for melee classes?

They're the ones that get splattered with blood because they're closer to the monster.

It would indeed be bad for anybody who got splashed by the blood of a particular monster whose blood causes very bad effects. That is after all the very point. And whereas I hadn't specifically thought of unholy in this context (I'm assuming you mean some specific gaming effect of unholy), I would agree some monsters would have unholy existences, and unholy remains. (Which is a good point about their dangerousness more widely speaking.) Since you mentioned unholy then, one might consider that the remains of some undead (some who have no blood at all) might wither away at "death, or at the end of their ultimate semi-corporeal existence," while some others might not. The body of a vampire might disintegrate visibly, entirely, or at least in part. That of a mummy just leave behind a semi-desiccated corpse, just depends on the situation and how that particular world is set up to function.

But like all problems in life, or even purely imaginary problems, when there is a given situation, there are ways to mitigate, influence, or alter the situation. That is part of the genius of problem solving and what makes good games interesting in my opinion. For instance one way to approach the monster problem is just to add on hit points and damage-done-tallies ad infinitum. (You make a monster more dangerous by giving him 1500 hit points rather than 150, and by making him do 100 hit points of damage per attack, instead of 10 per attack.) Danger then becomes wholly a tactical battle-matter. Danger is expressed primarily though combat capabilities. That's one way. That is the common in-game method now (I am speaking primarily of game design methods here, rather than particular world or milieu settings, where I am sure there is a much greater range of game-experimentation), in many respects. Everyone knows the basic armor class, hit point totals, capabilities, etc. of most any monster. If they don't they shortly can. It is very similar to wargaming in that you have readily available intelligence based upon scouted or well known troop dispositions, technical descriptions of weapon systems, information on fire-rates, combat experience of the opposing forces, and so forth and so on. The point is you know the enemy, you're not really fighting a monster (in the sense of the unknown), you're fighting a combat detachment dressed in scales and horn instead of ablative armor, and with a fire nozzle in it's mouth instead of a fifty caliber or a flamethrower mounted on a mobile combat system. So in that sense monsters are simply, and rarely much more, than "dispositions of combat power." So that's one way to handle the "what is a monster really problem," and I wouldn't necessarily argue that's a bad thing in and of itself, because one of the ways monsters are indeed dangerous, is that they are physically dangerous and potentially lethal in combat. But that's just one way to make them dangerous, and it's a very self-limiting way. Because it limits their "threat disposition" to being almost entirely a mechanical exercise in "combat capabilities and potential physical lethality." (As a side it also reduces all less physically and combat threatening monsters to little more than tactical nuisances, and assures magic is the only real way they can be truly threatening. But a truly clever and cunning lesser monster could be a much greater and more dangerous threat if he were dangerous in ways other than just an expression of his combat capability stats. As a matter of fact if played in the right way he could be terrifically dangerous, even uncannily so.)

There are then other ways to make monsters dangerous, when and where appropriate. One such is to make monsters dangerous psychologically (both in a general sense, and directly to the psyches of individual heroes). Another is to make them uncanny (in the sense I implied in the original post, but one need not limit uncanny to just my thread-sense of the definition of uncanny), so that close proximity is a threat in and of itself. Another is to make them dangerous by being unpredictable, and therefore it is difficult to develop effective tactical and strategic preparations against them. (An extension of unpredictability is to assure the players do not know exact dispositions and statistical information on given monsters.) Another by being Un-Holy (as you suggested) and all that implies. Another by being unique (not every eye stalk of a Beholder does the same things as the eye-stalks of a different Beholder), and therefore prepared Intel is difficult to gain or develop, and information is sparse, confused, or incorrect. Another is to make monsters intelligent and shrewd, so that they have well developed strategic and tactical capabilities and plans of their own. In that way they have employed others to fight, have raised armies, have set traps, misdirected their enemies, and so forth and so on. These other methods (and I've just named some of them) are more strategic than tactical, though they also require clever and flexible tactics in order to execute a viable and effective overall strategy, which you also usually have to devise along the way, maybe in an entirely ad hoc fashion. (In my opinion though, the very best way to employ and play monsters is as composite beings, as much as is appropriate and necessary for the particular creature in question. That is, as much as befits the particular monster, do not make the monster merely physically dangerous, or merely psychologically dangerous, but make them dangerous in as many different ways as possible. For instance, as an example, when playing a Rakshasa you make that monster physically dangerous, and magically dangerous, and psychologically dangerous, and intellectually dangerous, and uniquely dangerous, uncannily dangerous, and unpredictably dangerous. By making monsters dangerous in more than one way, you make them truly and even viciously dangerous. That idea goes beyond just the scope of the original post, of course, and is something I intend to expound upon in another thread about monsters called What Makes Monsters Truly Dangerous?, but I think it related enough to my general position to mention here in passing.)

But your overall observation is true. The blood or remains of uncanny monsters would be dangerous to close order combatants, or to anyone else near them. Then again that is what adaptation and cleverness and guile and craft is all about. When Perseus slew Medusa he didn't follow a normative pattern of rush in, see monster, have big bloody fight, kill monster. He faced a dangerous tactical and psychological and supernatural challenge and he adapted himself to the satiation. Any problem can be overcome with the proper and the clever application of available tools and technology (and magic - in fantasy realms) and strategy. The Medusa was extremely dangerous, and Perseus nevertheless overcame her using the proper strategy, and implements. Herakles overcame the Hydra. But certainly not by brute force alone, (alone brute force would have assured his defeat, not the monster's defeat) though he used brute force as one pincer of his overall method of attack. Perseus cut off the Medusa's head, and that was force application as well, but it was certainly not force that placed him in a position to kill her, that was craft and shrewdness and preparation.

So if you have a monster in whom you can gain some preliminary Intel, then you can prepare an effective strategy (and new defensive measures as well), adapting to the dangers to which you find yourself exposed. Of course you cannot overcome those dangers if you attack the Medusa in the same way you would attack a goblin. Then again in this sense a goblin is not truly uncanny, the Medusa is. Rushing into Melee does not mean though that you need approach every single instance of melee in the same manner (by the same tactical methods), or with the same strategic objective. If my players suspect a really dangerous and uncanny monster, they adapt methods. Or devise new ones. Both to survive, and to be effective. They change their "Danger and Risk stance." For instance in fighting a drunken brigand, someone who could kill you given the right set of circumstances, one would take one kind of danger and risk stance based on a realistic assessment of the possibilities, the inherent dangers, what you think your opponent could do, and so forth. The opponent projects a certain kind of danger, a certain level and type of threat. Facing a manticore on the other hand is an entirely different tactical proposition implying entirely different risks and dangers. However if the manticore is lowered to merely the level of a dozen brigands, because his only real threat as a monster is of being a combat threat, then to me he is no monster at all, other than in the sense of being "big." He becomes nothing more less than a "big combat threat," and large in size. His monstrosity is reduced entirely to "dangerous fighting squad dressed in fur, bat-wings, and a rubber face." For ammunition he throws iron spikes, not lead rounds or spent uranium. And that is, unfortunately, about the entire extent of his dangerousness and his "monstrosity" within the parameters of far too many game design structures.

The point is generally speaking that every form of experimentation and alteration (and especially improvement) to a given set of operating parameters leads to new capabilities, and correspondingly to a new set of problems which must be necessarily balanced or mitigated by additional new methodologies. For instance the invention of the jet engine (and plane) provided many new opportunities in aircraft and travel capabilities. The demands of the jet engine however superceded the outmoded fuselage and wing capabilities of the older style aircraft body designs. Was the solution then to abandon the much better jet engine because the previous superstructure designs were unable to cope with new performance demands? No, the answer was to design new aircraft frames which could handle the additional G-force and maneuvering demands placed upon the aircraft by much improved power plants.

Is the answer then to the more dangerous in-game monster to say, the problems are insurmountable or will lead to this or that particular difficultly? By very fact of existence the far more dangerous monster will definitely and certainly lead to new problems and risks and threat levels (in a whole host of ways) and will of course require new methods of addressing these higher demand requirements. Far more clever methods of risk mitigation and problem solving on the part of both player and DM. But then again that is the way progress is made, and also what problem solving is all about, which to me is a large and natural part of the purpose of role play gaming. We play for enjoyment, of course, but also to solve problems. All of life (real, virtual, internal, external, and even imaginary) is, to one extent or another, problem solving. The bigger, the more imposing, the more dangerous the problem to be faced, the more rewarding (generally speaking) it is when we can devise a clever, workable, functional, efficient, and real solution. Truly dangerous monsters, in-game, require both DMs and players to employ their own problem solving prowess to a far greater degree than is the case with mere mediocre monsters. Just as a truly dangerous, crafty, and clever NPC is far more a problem to overcome than an impotent lackey. That is after all the very point of being dangerous. And monsters should be dangerous. If they are not then they aren't really monsters, they are more like automated and inanimate machines dressed in weird costumes.

Well, I'll take up some of the other points later. I'm trying to hit and respond to one thing at a time, as I can. Right now though I've got to get back to work. Outta time, but enjoyed the exchange.

See ya.
 

Nice long response. Too bad that it missed the point of the complaint it was responding too entirely.

And as far as your justification goes, I'm not convinced at all that what you outline in the original post makes a monster more monsterous, and I'm beginning to get a bit of a 'badwrongfun' vibe from what you write.

But, to keep my complaint simple and to avoid getting into a shouting match, the basic problem with the whole essay you just wrote is that it contains a fundamental contridiction. You on the one hand complain that a purely mechanical description leads to purely mechanical play in which the fundamental monsterousness of the monster is removed from the game, but at the same time you are advocating as a solution to this problem more mechanics. Now, I'm as big believer in the idea that complex game mechanics help support depth of play as anyone, but I think in this case I find your prognosis flawed and your prescription ineffective.

Simply put, the monsterous quality of a monster lies almost wholly in the proper application of fluff and flavor, and if this is missing, no amount of crunch can make up for it. That 'thin disguise' you continually denigrate is precisely the answer to the problem. I think you've gotten caught up in an implicitly system specific thinking (ei, you are writing about D&D) about the problem of engaging the players in the monsterousness of their foes and of emmersing them in an environment of fear, when, if you would step back, you'd realize that good story telling and good game mastering resolves the problem whether we are using FUDGE or CoC or well D&D. You can make players afraid, panicy, uncertain, and awestruck regardless of system, it's all a matter of pacing, description, and player engagement. (Read some of the better story hours on EnWorld if you don't have personal experience with this truth).

A lack of terror and horror in your game is not a problem for mechanics. Nothing in the mechanics asserts that the characters or players necessarily know what they are facing. Nothing in the mechanics of D&D or any other system I can think of makes a monster a predictable foe, and I don't even see how you can begin to advance that argument. In 3rd edition in particular, in addition to the problem of not being able to recognize a monster from the DM's description, the player has to contend with not knowing what templates the monster might have, not knowing how advanced the monster might be, and not knowing whether and what sort of class levels the monster might have, to say nothing of not knowing whether this is a custom or customized monster that doesn't come right out of a book. If Lovecraftian 'fear of the unknown' is lacking in a D&D game, the problem isn't that the system as written can't support it, but that the DM doesn't make use of the proper narrative techniques or the tools available to him.

At best you can argue that some mechanics hinder or help the game to be emmersive (I would point to the use of minatures, for example), but I don't think you can say that monsters fail to instill fear and a sense of danger because of mechanics unless you are playing a game along the lines of Toon where the worst that can happen to a character is that they lose a scene.

And that isn't even getting into the problem of the fact that dangerous doesn't seem to mean what you think it means, since a crewed M1A2 tank is by any objective measure dangerous, threatening, and terrifying. I think you are trying to describe some other quality than 'dangerous' when you complain that a reskinned modern weapon isn't truly 'dangerous' or 'a threat'.
 

Nice long response. Too bad that it missed the point of the complaint it was responding too entirely.

What you think about the points I made is of course entirely up to you. But after reading your post I realized, well I have for a long time actually, that extended arguments over the internet are not a particularly fruitful, and certainly not a profitable use of my time. I have many other things to do, and to tell the truth I only come here for entertainment purposes. To write things I enjoy, and respond to things that interest me. To discuss various ideas in a diversionary, but not necessary, fashion. Now I know that arguments on the internet generate a lot of buzz, and thread hits, and what-not. I understand they are useful in that sense, to generate interest in what people are saying or arguing about. But personally this just doesn't stimulate or concern me much now-a-days.

So with that in mind, and with the other more reproductive and profitable demands on my time, I think that this will be the last time I write anything on this site.

Had nothing to do with you in particular, of course. It doesn't bother me in the least that people disagree with me, doesn't thrill me very much when they do agree. It's something to talk about either way, but it doesn't concern me in either direction. It's not like an accomplishment or anything. Just a discussion. But you did remind me that overall, much time and effort devoted to things like internet arguments over mechanical matters involving different visions of game design parameters is just not the very best use of my time and energies. It's only a hobby, it's not curing disease, designing a building, developing a new invention, composing music, adopting a kid, writing a history book, or even just visiting the Parthenon on vacation.

So I think I'm just gonna skip the internet threads and arguments and whatnot from now on. Concentrate on other things. In the future if I wish to write something about games or game design or something of that kind then I'll just send that kinda material to my agent or one of my publishers and let them find a decent market for it.

Occasionally I think I'll still read what some of you are writing, especially in your blogs. Some of you guys come up with some really interesting ideas. But the arguments and debates over what I consider minutiae just really don't interest me much anymore. They don't much help me flesh out my own ideas, and they don't stimulate me much with any new ideas. So I'm having trouble seeing the point of the exercise. I've got cases to work and kids to educate and inventions to finish and writings to complete and SAR exercises to train for, and so forth and so on. And as far as that goes I sometimes feel kinda bad when someone responds to something I write in one of these threads and then I either don't have the time to properly respond, or the desire to argue something I just don't take to be all that important for long stretches of time. So I reckon the best way to avoid those kinds of things is just to avoid those kinds of things

Yes, arguments can also be fun and even relaxing for me but I also have to realistically weigh whether the time and energy I am devoting to them could be better utilized in some other way, especially if the argument is gonna eventually lead nowhere (nothing changes for either party). And I've concluded that internet arguments over games (or most any other subject) don't really go anywhere or lead to anything productive, profitable, or really useful. Because to be perfectly frank, the internet world is just a virtual world, it isn't the real world. It just on occasion overlaps the real world.

To be honest I don't really argue on any of the other internet sites I visit much either, I just extract information, present information, or both - but I don't generally bother to argue. Maybe, to be honest in this sense as well, in one respect I was just using this site as an outlet for argument and debate about subjects I rarely get to discuss in other venues. For "fun debates" about entertainment. But if I have to take such internet fun debates deadly seriously, or of they consume too much of my time and energy, if they even require the idea of becoming agitated, upset, or engaging in a shouting match - instead of a discussion - over different formulations of invented monster traits or the philosophy of what it means to be an imaginary monster, then to also be honest, I also have to say that I'm probably not using my time very well.

So ladies and gentlemen it was an honor and a lot of fun.
And it was enjoyable and it was interesting.

But I think it's about time for me to dig my way out of the imaginary rabbit hole. I gotta train to catch.

See ya around.
 

LOL

Well, I can't say that I also haven't also been frustrated with my inability to communicate what I'm thinking, nor am I unacquainted with the disappointment one feels when you write something you think is really cool and everyone just goes 'Meh.'

Have fun with your lurker status. Good luck getting your stuff published.
 

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