The Book of Exalted Deeds - For Mature Players

[MerricB]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the complaint about RP penalties. Really, almost all bonuses in D&D don't have penalties attached. You just get better at X. Done. Adding them in only makes the feat weaker.

Actually, it's not so much a "penalty" as a tradeoff for everything in D&D.

You spend this feat on Improved Initiative, so you can't spend that feat on Weapon Focus.

You choose to play a Wizard, so you're not as good as fighting in melee as the Fighter.

Cheers!

 

[Lela]

I left that out, didn't I? Dangit!

Thanks MerricB!

 

[htetickrt]

I left that out, didn't I? Dangit!

Thanks MerricB!

I think Lela's point still stands, though. The Vow of Peace Feat may provide powerful benefits, but the RP challenges make any characters with it difficult to play. Most feats don't have this internal balancing, as opposed to the tradeoffs inherent in taking a feat.

Of course, this means they can be abused, but there is no reason they have to be in any campaign that takes morality seriously.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[MerricB]

I think Lela's point still stands, though. The Vow of Peace Feat may provide powerful benefits, but the RP challenges make any characters with it difficult to play. Most feats don't have this internal balancing, as opposed to the tradeoffs inherent in taking a feat.

Of course.

Balancing game bonuses with role-playing penalties is a hugely tricky business. So much of it is dependent on the group and especially the DM. When you have a book like the BoED, you are really pushing the boundaries of the game and it's to be expected that it won't work for everyone.

Though I like the BoED, it is inapplicable for many of my campaigns. However, I find the strict ethical stance of the book to be very interesting, and I would like to see it in action at some point.

Cheers!

 

[Lela]

Feats like Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence do more than RP penalties. Not being able to hit an opponent in combat, or deal lethal damage to them, is definitally a setback that can really hurt a character (or kill one).

This is opposed to, say, the Vow of Abstinance. It's purely RP. You're in a tavern and you don't order the wine. It's not going to kill you.

All of them tend to add a lot of flavor to characters though, which is good and bad.

Also note that both of those feats require Sacred Vow, which is a useless PreQ feat. A lot of balance comes from that one.

 

[Neo]

Certainly, there are a couple of cases where the bonuses seem to outweigh even the role-playing penalties. (Vow of Poverty for a Monk comes to mind) However, I'm mainly interested in the bulk of the book, not in a mere one or two corner cases, though if you wish to point out those cases, it'd be enlightening.
Cheers!

One of the players in my group asked me if I minded him taking the Vow of Poverty feat, and after reading it I allowed him.

I think the inability to possess wealth and magic items, even to the extent of not being able to "Loan" them from the group temporarily is a fairly big trade off and balances out for the benefits fairly well.

Thus far the player in question has roleplayed the vow well. though I guess we will see in more detail how much of an impact it makes on him OR the party once he's higher level.

 

[DragonLancer]

The powergamer/rules-lawyer in my group had his first look at my copy of the BoED this last weekend and his opinion is that the Vow feats are either not worth the effort (even in the long run) or are just too good.

Vow of Abstience, has a poor clause in it. You cannot take alchohol and/or drugs or you loose the benefit of the class. However, if you are drugged by someone else and you are not aware, you still lose the benefits. This is rather unfair IMO, since its not your fault and there are events outside of your control.

Basically, the BoED is great for options but thats it. I would never use everything in this or its companion volume.

 

[Lela]

I've read the Saint template again and I think the Level Adjustment of +2 is probably low. It's almost as good as the Half-Dragon template. I'd make it at least +3 and I might consider it a high +3 at that.


I'm not sure how I feal about that clause in the Vows either. Seems to me that if you're attacked by someone and they force you break your Vow of Chastity, that's not at all the same thing as breaking the Vow. And no good deity would say otherwise regardless of what the feat says. The same should go for Abstinance, Poverty, Purity, Peace and Obedience.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunately, I think most people just "read the crunch without reading the smooth" with this book.
Most of the feats have the pre-requisite of being an exalted character.

Good Alignment = Exalted Character?

Wrong, wrong and wrong!!!

Exalted characters in my opinion must follow the tenets of good set down in the 1st chapter of the book. They must live by these principles and not sway from them. To do so would seem to mean instant loss of exalted status and all the feats associated with this.

I play an exalted Paladin and while he is not played lawful stupid, his hands are tied on most issues. In fact, he has many difficulties in some respects in staying lawful on all issues - tending towards actions that could be perceived as more Neutral Good.

To play a character with the non-violence and peace feats means that you are playing someone who is maniacal about not hurting things. They drink water through strainers so as not to hurt any water bound life, tread lightly (or preferably walking 1 foot above the ground through magical means) so as not to hurt any underfoot wildlife and in general cannot really adventure properly with your average group of dungeon crawlers. Are the benefits worth it? It depends how strictly you are made to follow the restrictions. I agree that this is one reason why the book is best left to mature audiences.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[reiella]

My problem with "role-playing" penalties is that they aren't really penalties.
It's the character you in theory want to play.

The idea that the character type of "I want to be a person who holds himself to a higher standard than most people could only aspire to obtain." somehow necessitates being more powerful is flawed in my opinion. The idea that somehow an ideaology is somehow subpar is a disturbing one that reminds me sickeningly so of CRPGs. This is in reference mostly to most of the Exalted Feats and not specifically the Vows, which are interesting mechanics but many are ultimately flawed in my opinion (notably they automatically disappear in 90% of the instances where their benefit would come into play until the feat-possesser atones).

For me, I was more annoyed that the perks were almost all universally more than those presented in Book of Vile Darkness (a book I actually liked).

Of course, take my opinions with a hefty dose of salt as I don't like Book of Exalted Deeds much at all.

And yes, the ECL variance for Sainthood was intentional... It reads as such in the text explaining how one can achieve Sainthood unforunately .