The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[barsoomcore]

You make it sound like its a bad thing to have to change something. Change it. So what. It doesnt mean anything bad is gonna happen.

Psst, Grazzt, maybe you haven't been keeping up, but greymarch can't change things. He's not allowed. If he changes anything, his group won't play with him. Poor guy.

 

[MerricB]

Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.

Thanks, guys! You've made my job so much easier.



Very nice review, btw. I'll definitely be picking this book up.

Personally, Lolth isn't a deity in my personal Greyhawk campaign - just a demoness who can grant spells (per the guidelines in Deities & Demigods - Divine Rank 0).

I prefer lower level stats for these guys. Powering them up is likely to be more easy than reducing their power, so I'm very happy with how WotC has done it.

Cheers!

 

[Numion]

The poster who said that Graz'zt 'needed to be made uncool' is possibly onto something.

More powerful Grazz't would've been cooler?

More power = cooler, then?

Does that make Elminster 1337-kewl?

Just kidding.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Henry mate!

All right, let's THROW DOWN, KRUST-BOY!!!!

Seriously, I guess I need to dig back out my 1eMM2, and compare notes.

So it would appear!

I seem to recall it somewhat differently from what you describe - after all, Grazzt was introduced later than Orcus or Demogorgon, and I recall him as being somewhat lesser in power (although I do recall being impressed way back when that he had magic missile as a spell-like ability)

Yep he had four attacks per round and had Disintigrate AND Polymorph Any Object as spell-like abilities.

I also recall him as a prince of deception as early as his description in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (his original appearance); in fact, he and Iggwilv were the parents of Drelzna the Vampiress, was he not?? I believe he seduced Iggwilv, unless I am mistaken. Also, is Iuz not the progeny of Grazz't? If both are true, we get the picture of Grazz't as quite the "playah."

Exactly. He's the Demon Prince of Cool. I bet he even has the voice of Barry White. Graz'zt is the original pimp daddy - why do you think he hangs with all those Succubi; Lamias and Mariliths!

Therefore, I don't quote 1E, but 2E sources for my info.

Blasphemy! I'll let you off with it once - just don't do it again.

Finally, I don't take XP as final measure of a creature's power in 1E or 2E. This system was in some ways as screwy as the CR system, IMHO.

I take it with a pinch of salt.

Though the evidence speaks for itself. Graz'zt is one badass mama-jama...or at least he was until Monte gave him a makeover.

I will have to look back at raw stats between Orcus, Demogorgon, and Grazz't from the 1E sources, but I based my assertions on what I recalled of them. If I am wrong, I will admit it.

Hey! You know I ain't frontin'.

However, my supposition still stands: Monte's and WotC's vision can and WILL differ from ours. It doesn't matter in relative power, or in overall. This version of Grazz't will still mop the floor with any Core Rules mortals that come his way. With Orcus and Demogorgon, he might have to be a little more clever.

Relative power always matters - power IS relative.

Live long and prosper, my immortal-knowledgeable friend.

I fully intend to mate!

...or should that be 'Peace and Long Life'.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Seriously, if you want something different...

...CHANGE it. WotC provides a baseline and a foundation with with to work. Sometimes (often, in fact) that's enough. But sometimes it isn't, and you have to change it. If you're too squeamish to muck around in the rules a little, then I, personally, have little respect for you as a dungeon master. Don't be such a wuss - What do you think this is, Rolemaster? This is Dungeons and Freakin' Dragons! Get out there and make the status quo your bitch!

 

[herald]

Psst, Grazzt, maybe you haven't been keeping up, but greymarch can't change things. He's not allowed. If he changes anything, his group won't play with him. Poor guy.

Darn it, Now I have soil myself. Ok, gotta stop with this.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.

Thanks, guys! You've made my job so much easier.

I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not.

I, for one, like the demon princes right where they are, so I guess that makes me a non-power gamer. Or something. I dunno.

 

[Xarlen]

I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not.

Despite my love for the fellow kobold, it's pretty much accepted Kobolds don't go Epic.

 

[MerricB]

I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not.

Well, I played the Amber DRPG for three years or so, being a Duke of Amber and a Prince of Chaos for that time... so I guess I've got a certain tendency towards Really Powerful Characters!



Cheers!

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Well, I played the Amber DRPG for three years or so, being a Duke of Amber and a Prince of Chaos for that time... so I guess I've got a certain tendency towards Really Powerful Characters!



Cheers!

Bah. Diceless. Anyone can be a Really Powerful Character when you just sit around and play pretend.