The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Claude!

But CoC d20 is a stand alone game. Investigators aren't supposed to be epic levels ever and if they do encounter the gods, it's only so they can go insane and die.

Exactly. Yet that book contained deity-level interpretations of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods in an appendix and no one complained.

CoC does have deity stats, but they are an abbreviated version of what's in Deities & Demigods.

So why couldn't the Book of Vile Darkness be treated in a similar fashion!?

Furthermore, the gods aren't meant to be challenges to the players in any way, shape or form.

Why not?

But since they ARE gods, and are included for completeness, then they were stated as gods.

Okay lets look at a parallel here.

The Great Old Ones have worshippers so they are statted as gods. The Demon Princes and Archdevils also have worshippers...yet they are not statted as gods. Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?

The demon princes and arch-devils are not gods (by 3e canon) and shouldn't be statted as such.

Even if we prescribe to this shaky 3rd Ed. canon they spend a not insignificant amount of time outlining the worshippers of these beings; detailing the domains these beings could grant; and explaining how "if you want" you could give them divine ranks.

If you think these creatures are too weak, fine,

The power level is consistent with where you would want it given you have to facilitate interaction with the lowest common denominator while still retaining some semblance of power. I have no problem with that in itself - actually it makes sense.

My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power.

but just because another game included diety stats and didn't need Deities & Demigods doesn't mean that accessories to D&D should do the same.

I didn't say it should do the same - but it certainly could without any difficulty. Also that would have also solved 90% of the discussion in this thread since you would have the Divine Asmodeus to challenge epic PCs and an Avatar Asmodeus to interact with powerful, though non-epic PCs. Simple as that.

 

[MerricB]

It's all in the attitude. It's the only time I've really played an evil, arrogant bastard. Let's face it, you don't get really powerful by being nice to everyone.

Of course, I never get a chance to play really high-level D&D characters - the most I've ever had is a 13th level wizard in 1E/2E. But I'm DMing way too often...

Cheers!

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I know why Graz'zt (move apostrophe as necessary) is wimpy now - My party smacked his ass three ways to Sunday and stole their goddess back.

Or, they would have. If they hadn't gotten killed before they got there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kenjib!

Aren't they? Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD. With 66 HD he is CR 23. That's pretty close to Graz'zt.

Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version.

 

[MerricB]

At these high levels, isn't CR just a state of mind?

A state of a deranged mind?

Like Galactibanks?

Cheers!

 

[drnuncheon]

you are in essence agreeing with me, that (based on the CR24) Graz'zt does not fit where he should for a game using the ELH. What does that mean? It means the BoVD and ELH are not compatible.

I guess what I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of the two books as incompatible. That, to me, means that the books can't work together - which is obviously not the case.

Using your definition of "not compatible", every single d20 book is "not compatible" with each other - a statement which seems ridiculous to me - simply because they don't take every other d20 book into account. Such a definition of incompatibility stretches the meaning of the word past its breaking point, at least to my mind.

I prefer to reserve the word for more serious inabilities to work together, ones that cannot be resolved by ten minutes of work with a pencil and paper.

J

 

[Tuerny]

Hi kenjib!



Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version.

Using your homebrewed version of the CR system, right?

Its pretty clear that tripling the HD of a creature adds 4 to its CR in the core rules.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version.

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersc.html

Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD. There's nothing in the MM errata for it.

 

[drnuncheon]

Hi kenjib!



Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version.

Er, UK...are you using your own CR calculations here, or the ones from WOTC. They are apples and oranges, really.

I ask because my copy of the Monster Manual has the Solars at CR 19 and 22 hit dice, just like kenjib's. Doubling the hit dice twice would add +4 to the CR, making it 23 - again, just as kenjib said.

I've just checked the errata (03/18, the latest version) and it does not appear to have any changes for the CR of the Solar.

Where is this CR25 coming from, and how are you getting from there to CR 33 when you triple the hit dice?

J

 

[jasamcarl]

Ummmm...

Could somebody explain to me the logic of asserting that an inability to advance a monster by hd is in anyway inconsistent with either the core rules or ELH. Which ELH rule do the demon/devil lords violate? Monte Cook made clear that infact the CRs work for epic as well as non epic games.