The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Using your homebrewed version of the CR system, right?

Its pretty clear that tripling the HD of a creature adds 4 to its CR in the core rules.

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org...dmonstersc.html

Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD. There's nothing in the MM errata for it..

Er, UK...are you using your own CR calculations here, or the ones from WOTC. They are apples and oranges, really.

I ask because my copy of the Monster Manual has the Solars at CR 19 and 22 hit dice, just like kenjib's. Doubling the hit dice twice would add +4 to the CR, making it 23 - again, just as kenjib said.

I've just checked the errata (03/18, the latest version) and it does not appear to have any changes for the CR of the Solar.

Where is this CR25 coming from, and how are you getting from there to CR 33 when you triple the hit dice?.

Yes those are extrapolated from my ECL/CR system - I guarantee it gives more accurate results than the official rules.

The official rules have a number of blatant mistakes (even Monte Cook went on record saying he thought the Solar was more akin to CR25) of which the Solar is the most obvious.

Likewise their advancement rules prove to be wildly innaccurate and incongruous.

Trust me...I know what I'm doing!

 

[Psion]

Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.

Will that thread ever end?

 

[Henry]

A correction to my earlier statement:

After looking at the stats for Graz'zt (got it right this time around), and the stats for Big D. and Big O. I can conclude that in First Edition AD&D, Big G. is comparable in power to D. and O., but not necessarily superior to D. or O.

G., for one thing, has weaker Damage resistance, his Magic resistance is weaker, and his armor class is comparable if he isn't using his magic shield, but he is stronger in his spell-like abilities than D. or O. He also carries a bigger entourage. A host of other minor factors come into play, here (for instance, he could cast the equivalent of a wish, but only for others and never himself), but suffice it to say, he should be close to equivalent CR and power - following the 1E example, perhaps he should work out to a CR between Big D. and Big O.?

The real pudding will be when I get the book. Only then will we be able to offer a definitive analysis of Graz'zt versus the other princes. However, he will always be my favorite demonic pimp daddy, no matter how he is portrayed.

 

[Tuerny]

Hi all!







Yes those are extrapolated from my ECL/CR system - I guarantee it gives more accurate results than the official rules.

The official rules have a number of blatant mistakes (even Monte Cook went on record saying he thought the Solar was more akin to CR25) of which the Solar is the most obvious.

Likewise their advancement rules prove to be wildly innaccurate and incongruous.

Trust me...I know what I'm doing!

Not to be rude, but why should we trust you over WotC?

 

[MerricB]

Will that thread ever end?

Never! It's the arguing that's the fun bit, not whether we're right or not.

It allows us to take outrageous positions and try and beat each other down...

Actually, I get a bit depressed by the 1Eers that see nothing of value in 3E, just as I get depressed by the reverse.

So much of it is speculation - as I don't believe there is One True Way, it makes it difficult when there are people that are.

Incidentally, have you had a chance to look at Necropolis, Alan?

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Every so often, I start up a thread on GreyTalk on whether people consider Lolth a demoness or a deity. I'm very much in the "demoness, she can be killed" camp, though I admit she can grant spells. Alternatively, she's the front-demoness for a greater power (Tharizdun?) that channels her the energy, though she unknowing...

Opinions vary on this, of course!

Regardless, of whatever level of power you place a demon lord at, some will regard it as too low, and some as too high.

Cheers!

 

[Psion]

It allows us to take outrageous positions and try and beat each other down...

That's what I find frustrating. All the boogeymen.

I don't mind people not liking 1e or 3e... I just wish they'd dislike it for what it is, not what it's not.

Incidentally, have you had a chance to look at Necropolis, Alan?

Flipped through it in the store. Decided not to pick it up as I don't have much use for it. Looks nice, though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Claude mate!

They could have treated it in the same fashion, but my point was that the books serve different purposes. One is to let you play CoC fully and completely. The other is to add evil to your villains in a standard D&D game (not epic or statted gods game).

Yet you don't need stats for the Great Old Ones to play CoC and the Archdevils are not the only villains. Therfore such stats are practically already superfluous to non-divine/non-epic gamers.

BTW, the players in CoC are not meant to challenge the gods because that is the flavor of the campaign. Any who see them are supposed to go insane and/or die. You can change it if you want, but that's not how most people play it.

Exactly. So the Great Old Ones stats in that book were targeted not at CoC players but at divine/epic D&D players.

No, because 3e specifically states that they aren't gods. It then goes to make a few exceptions (Lolth), but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

True but WHY does it state that some beings have worshippers and are gods yet others aren't. Its hypocrisy whatever way you approach it!?

True, which is darn nice of Monte to do so.

I'm guessing he got paid as well.

Just because you have to buy Deities & Demigods to figure out all the particulars doesn't mean that they should have statted them twice for you. After all, if you want their stats as gods, you probably want the stats of all gods and have bought D&Dg.

My point was that CoC D20 included such stats with minimum fuss without the need for D&Dg.

Then you can put the demons & devils at what power is appropriate for your campaign instead of WotC deciding for you and causing more consternation and uproar such as "Why isn't Orcus a greater god????"

As I already mentioned I have no problem with the power level in the book (because I was always going to modify them anyway) but I can see why some people prefer these entities not to be pushovers.

I agree with you on both these points.

Maybe so, but they might have had to cut something completely new instead, like a few spells, feats, or some equipment. I would rather have new stuff than dual statted demon princes. Of course, if they make a web enhancement with deity stats, I certainly won't complain and will probably use it happily.

The book is only 191 pages (below even the de facto 224 standard) - I think they could have seen their way to adding a few more.

Its not like they couldn't think what else to add - they had about another hundred or so unique lower planar entities to draw from: Baphomet? Fraz-Urb'luu? Kostchtchie? Pazuzu? Zuggtmoy? Anthraxus? General of Gehenna? Apomps? Elemental Lords of Evil? etc.

 

[BryonD]

Obviously, since that's exactly what I was saying. I think it's a poor choice of words for the concept you are trying to get across, because it has implications which go far beyond what you are trying to say. That is what I was pointing out.

J

I meant exactly what I said, and have yet to hear evidence that anything it implies is off.

 

[IceBear]

Bah! It's like I said when I heard they were making Star Wars Episode I - "It'll never live up to the expectations". No matter what stats they gave for the demon princes no one would be happy because we all have different campaigns and expectations. They shot for the lowest common denominator, and those that don't like them will have to modify the stats as appropriate (at least those of us that are allowed to modify stats ).

IceBear