The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Celebrim]

If I was intent on convincing some people that D&D players where not demon worshippers...

Then this thread would not be the place to start.

Sheesh.

I had no idea that these critters commanded this kind of love and devotion. This is insane. It's just a bunch of numbers on a peice of paper???

I'm looking at Graz'zt's picture in the MMII and you know I just can't see it. And as for those people that keep complaining that old Graz'zt and co. should be immensely more powerful than 'mere mortals', let me remind you that Graz'zt lost to out TWICE to 'mere mortals' in his official history. First, when he was imprisoned by an unnamed wizard - which cost him dearly in his war with Demogorgon, and secondly when the planar rangers freed the goddess Waukeen from his prisons. So please, enough already. He never was particularly potent statwise in any regard except AC. Mephistopheles has more psionic points, better magic resistance, and better spell abilities, Orcus has better equipment (not to mention Time Stop), and Fraz-Urb'luu has him beat in the Thug department. If you want Graz'zt to be CR 29 (or 49) in your game world, go to town, but that wouldn't necessarily be good conversion. Basically I'd be happy with Grazz't as something similar to a 24th level Psychic Warrior with a demonic template and a few extra spell abilities.

He's just a D&D monster for crying out loud.

And for those of you complaining, the stats given for the arch fiends where never significantly better than an uber-powerful mortal, so why should they be now? They were always intended to be foes for high level parties, which back in the day meant 15th-18th. Why is it important to you that they be held in awe?

 

[Zelda Themelin]

The major ones at least are on par with the most powerful solars.

A 22 HD (Standard) solar has a CR 19
A 33 HD one has a CR of 20
and so on and so forth up to a 66 HD solar having a CR of 23.

Graz'zt is thus more powerful than the most powerful solar with a CR as stated in the book.

Mmh, that might be true. But comparing CR:s doesn't hold water for me. I need to see stats first.

If you have ever visited WotC pages fight club, you might know how funnily they add CR, when giving monsters character levels. Funny, since many are still going to be walked over by similar 'real' CR mosnters.

And with some monsters extra HD (anvanced HD) is so much more valuable, than rules make it appear to be. Because critters HP, saves, etc rise up. And HP are really important factor, especailly if critter fast heals, is practicly 'immune' to most elemental spells (takes only marginal damage at best, if not complitely immune to that element), and unliky to ever fail a save to rest of them.

However, if might be, they gave these lords of evil abilities, that make them at par with high HD solar, even if their HD is less. That remains to be seen.

 

[Olive]

new thread...

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27074

this is a thread for discussing the contents of the book, not the relative merits of the way they stated the lords and arches, or how CR works...

so please answer questions here!!!

oh yeah: the d20 CoC book put the stats for the elder gods etc in because "in D&D... they can make formidible foes".

in other words they're in there for D&D players... which is why they have alignment and other non-CoC stats...

 

[S'mon]

So you liked the fact that Lolth only had 69 hit points?

66hp - 132 on her home plane.

It still took a level 20+ party to complete 'Queen of the Demonweb Pits'!

 

[S'mon]

More powerful Grazz't would've been cooler?

More power = cooler, then?

Does that make Elminster 1337-kewl?

Just kidding.

Elminster is uncool both in concept & execution. Graz'zt is cool in concept, but now in 3e is uncool in exceution, being presented as much weaker than Orcus or _Iuz_?!?!

That, as UK pointed out, is the real travesty - that DDG and BoVD are so far apart in assumed power levels, you get ridiculous results like that.

 

[Zappo]

If I was intent on convincing some people that D&D players where not demon worshippers...

Then this thread would not be the place to start.

Sheesh.

I had no idea that these critters commanded this kind of love and devotion. This is insane. It's just a bunch of numbers on a peice of paper???

Same applies to your most beloved PC, for that matter. Or to my nation's GDP. Don't underestimate the power of numbers on a piece of paper.

 

[Numion]

I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with everyone to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone. Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil],

Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources, so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures almost usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.

And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight. CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi drnuncheon!

CR is not a measure of power.

CR is a measure of the challenge to 4 PCs in a fight.

Actually CR is the most consistent measure of power within the D20 system.

There are many ways to be powerful that do not involve being able to kick the tuckuses of 4 guys who show up on your front doorstep.

Graz'zt may be able to hold his own versus Demogorgon and Orcus for reasons other than sheer combat ability.

I haven't seen the stats or the background, so I'm not certain if that's the case, but it seems to be that 90% or more of the "wussy Graz'zt" complaint has been based solely on CR, which is as ridiculous as basing it solely on number of hit points.

In short: Graz'zt may be a tougher foe for other demon lords than he is for PCs. That won't be reflected in his CR, because CR isn't meant to measure how tough you are against demon lords, it's meant to measure how tough you are against PCs.

Nevertheless CR is our only marker for power.

In the Abyss personal power is everything. That determines how far up the hierarchy you ascend. Its not like Graz'zt is the CEO of a company - he has to get his hands dirty; and he has to be seen get his hands dirty to gain and maintain his respect.

 

[S'mon]

Hi drnuncheon!


Actually CR is the most consistent measure of power within the D20 system.

Nevertheless CR is our only marker for power.

In the Abyss personal power is everything. That determines how far up the hierarchy you ascend. Its not like Graz'zt is the CEO of a company - he has to get his hands dirty; and he has to be seen get his hands dirty to gain and maintain his respect.

Yeah, I think a lot of people miss this. In CE societies, and the Abyss is the epitome of CE, personal power is everything. If Kostchtchie could crush Graz'zt like a pretzel, it wouldn't be long before he did it, no matter how more charismatic Graz'zt is. LE is different - power in LE societies can depend on position/status rather than personal ability.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Grover!

On Graz'zt's CR:

Pfft and feh! Upper Krust misses the whole point of Graz'zt - he didn't get where he he is today from his raw power. He's successful because he's smart, cunning, charismatic and subtle.

He is indeed all of those - but in the Abyss you need to be able to back that up because theres always some maniac just crazy enough to 'call you out'!

In 2nd edition, Demogorgon and Orcus were both lesser gods, while Graz'zt was only a quasi-deity. And it didn't matter! He was still one of the most powerful of the Abyssal rulers.

Please don't use 2nd Ed. as a basis for such a discussion - they didn't know what the hell they were doing back then.

A prince of the Abyss should never have to engage in direct combat with anybody.

Wrong. Demon Princes have to be physically capable of backing their intentions up.

They have vast legions and magical protections, and they can urge the land and local reality itself to fight for them.

Not really. Gods can do that though; but I think people often get the wrong idea what that means.

Graz'zt's armies are at least as vast as Demogorgon's ever were, while Orcus is weakened by his war with Kiaransalee.

I agree their armies should be relative - as should they themselves!

Graz'zt's loyal minion, Lord Verin, has wormed his way into the confidence of many other lords, while others serve Graz'zt out of fear of his influence or because of his many sinister pacts.

Exactly. Graz'zt is a Demon Monarch. He has other Princes and Lords under his banner (Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie for example). But so do other Demon Monarchs like Demogorgon; Orcus and Zuggtmoy.

He's a consummate dealmaker, not concerned with the raw elemental energy of evil as Demogorgon is, or with just killing everybody like Orcus wants to do.

All the above are concerned with conquering the Abyss though - regardless of other 'hobbies'.

Claiming that Graz'zt needs to physically defeat Demogorgon in a boxing ring does a huge disservice to the character of this most subtle of demons.

Not at all. Thats how the Abyss works.

The disservice was to make Graz'zt a whipping boy in a place where personal power is gospel.